Car of the future, future of the automobile, quotes

[Leo Maximus]

The consumption of the BMW 7 series on hydrogen is ... ~ 50 liters per 100km, ...

Above I gave a link where a test was done recently. Consumption per 100 km was 80 liters and not 50 liters. BMW has shown its non-how in terms of hydrogen

Still interested in hydrogen?

Yes, very interested. In particular by the Honda Clarity, it is not a concept car, it exists and it is hired in California since June, in November in Japan. Toyota and Nissan will do the same next year, then Renault I hope. The hydrogen produced by Air Liquide will be used more intelligently, currently the cubic kilometers produced are used to exhaust diesel!

For the same distance traveled, an electric vehicle with a hydrogen heat pump will consume 2 to 3 times LESS oil (including that which is consumed by production) than a standard vehicle with a diesel or gasoline thermal engine.

[Christophe]

What is the precise density of liquid (and pressurized) H2 at -250 ° C? What is the cost in embodied energy for conditioning and storage?

Using and transporting pure H2 is ridiculous whether for combustion or a fuel cell. Those who claim the opposite of the dishonest or the ignorant.

It is not for nothing that nature adds a carbon atom to it ... we should do the same ...

[Leo Maximus]

What is the precise density of liquid (and pressurized) H2 at -250 ° C? What is the cost in embodied energy for conditioning and storage?

Using and transporting pure H2 is ridiculous whether for combustion or a fuel cell. Those who claim the opposite of the dishonest or the ignorant.

It is not for nothing that nature adds a carbon atom to it ... we should do the same ...

This is a question that should be asked of Air Liquide, they are professionals . They produce and sell H2 all over the world, or to BMW and Mercedes since they use liquid hydrogen for their Clean Power and Necar.

Honda, Nissan and Toyota use compressed H2 gas.

On the page http://www.jhfc.jp/e/ (Japan Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Demonstration Project) there are hydrogen stations in service in Japan.

[Leo Maximus]

There is an argument often used by anti-hydrogen: the "formidable" pressure of the bottles, 300 bars is monstrous, who will accept to ride while sitting on such a bomb? But scuba diving cylinders have a working pressure of 230 bars, their test pressure is much higher. Firefighters use composite cylinders with higher pressures and if there has been (at least) one accident it is the consequence of non-compliance with handling instructions. In Peugeot's Hydro-Gen concept car with a hydrogen gas heat pump, there are cylinders manufactured by EADS Composite Aquitaine inflated with 700 bar.

[Christophe]

Air Liquide sells process hydrogen (for labs for example) and not hydrogen energy.... therefore given the quantity (and surely the selling price) they can afford to have a cost of gray energy compression, storage and significant transport.

Any company that has a massive need for H2 produces it LOCALLY ... see refineries.

I think that compared to energy we must obtain a cost of the H2 of liquid air 10 to 100 times that of oil at the pump !! Pure CO2 is already sold for a fortune, so pure H2 ...

The only industrial energy use of H2 is currently the propulsion of space launchers as well as, without a doubt, some military applications (propulsion of missiles and explosive charges) ...

[Leo Maximus]

I do not have the price of H2 gas per kilo, I do not sell it ... so I will send an email to Air Liquide and I will publish the answer here.

Air Liquide is a partner of the Nissan Pan European Tour at PAC Hydrogen gaz. I don't think the H2 gas they supply to Nissan is "special".

[Chatham]

There is an argument often used by anti-hydrogen: the "formidable" pressure of the bottles, 300 bars is monstrous, who will accept to ride while sitting on such a bomb? But scuba diving cylinders have a working pressure of 230 bars, their test pressure is much higher. Firefighters use composite cylinders with higher pressures and if there has been (at least) one accident it is the consequence of non-compliance with handling instructions. In Peugeot's Hydro-Gen concept car with a hydrogen gas heat pump, there are cylinders manufactured by EADS Composite Aquitaine inflated with 700 bar.

Yes, for sure, a traffic accident is not a "failure to respect the instructions" ... and what to think of the comparison of a non-flammable gas (air) to a highly flammable gas capable of igniting a airship of 234m in 90 seconds (the propagation speed is 2.6m / second at atmospheric pressure with, in the event of an explosion (case of confinement) an energy 10% greater than a natural gas explosion ...
For other open questions:
The consumption in circulation "normal" of the series 7 latest model is of 3.4kg / 100km, that is to say for a density of 0.71kg per liter of liquid hydrogen, it is well in the 50L / 100km, the 80L / 100 have been reached by journalists who "had fun" with the car ...
Knowing that the hydrogen tanks, 150L in the latest version of the 7 series proto, but the total volume is not usable (9.5kg of liquid hydrogen maximum), weigh 145kg empty ...
The energy required (only for liquefaction) is 2.8kw / L in the best case and 3.9kw / L in the worst ... the filling pipe weighs 10kg ... it will muscle motorists ... and the gas station is ~ 100x more expensive than petroleum fuel ...
The "normal" proportion of the type of hydrogen is 25% para-hydrogen and 75% ortho-hydrogen: these proportions are variable according to the conditions of t ° / pressure, the conversion from one type to another is done naturally. ...

[Leo Maximus]

I imagine that the standards and crash tests will be the same for cars running on compressed hydrogen as they are for petrol cars with an almost empty tank containing an air / petrol mixture.
They will even be much more advanced (AMHA) so that we can read in the various facts: " the collision was extremely violent, all the passengers died but the 700 bar hydrogen canister is absolutely intact »

1 kg of gaseous hydrogen at 700 bars => 23 liters
1 kg of hydrogen at - 252 ° C => 14 liters
Source: Air Liquide

Considering the difference in volume, I don't really see the benefit of liquid hydrogen, especially with a heat engine whose efficiency falls below 10%.

I would add that, taking into account the much higher yields, a hydrogen fuel cell electric car carries a much lower mass of "explosive" than a conventional vehicle.

[Leo Maximus]

You can already buy a car with a hydrogen fuel cell! Hydrogen is produced by solar energy using photovoltaic cells and the price is affordable:

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/en/pc/view ... roduct=286

Awesome !

[Chatham]

I imagine that the standards and crash tests will be the same for cars running on compressed hydrogen as they are for petrol cars with an almost empty tank containing an air / petrol mixture.
They will even be much more advanced (AMHA) so that we can read in the various facts: " the collision was extremely violent, all the passengers died but the 700 bar hydrogen canister is absolutely intact »

We need much stricter standards with hydrogen because:
Even an empty gas tank (i.e. full of vapors) does not explode, (the oxygen level is too low), at least not strong enough to be really dangerous (we are not at the cinema ), on the other hand a tank (necessarily very large or / and multiple) pierced with hydrogen at 700bars (which is much more likely than the outright explosion of the tank) would form an ultra powerful jet (likely to pierce and freeze anyone is on the path) then a cloud of gas + highly flammable air which would form a fireball whose impact on the health of people around may be slightly negative ... moreover a pure hydrogen fire is almost invisible (it is only the combustion of other elements that make the flame visible).
The only tanks to withstand terrible accidents are containers of nuclear elements ... but the weight and cost of such protection is incompatible with an automobile ...