Aluminum-Air fuel cell from Phinergy-Alcoa

[chatelot16]

water consumption is not serious, it is easily found everywhere in France (I specify in France, because at certain places it will be necessary to avoid this system)

the most annoying problem will be the evacuation of aluminum hydoxide ... low value, will it be recycled?

what will be the electrolyte? not pure water ... there will certainly be some loss of the active product with the hydroxide? danger or pollution?

the manufacture of aluminum being quite delicate on the purity of the products, if this waste is not recovered properly it will be good for nothing

the complexity of aluminum production makes it impossible to redo aluminum with small energy sources

the advantage of zinc in this way is that its recycling by electrolysis is possible in small dimensions ... so we could do it at home

[Gaston]

We therefore need, in principle, 20 kg of water, therefore 20 liters of water for 1600 km. Therefore, for 300 km it means 4 liters of water minimum.

But, of course it will take more to ensure that the water always flows freely. To be conservative we can approximate the amount of water to 10 liters every 300 km.

In this case, why not put 60 liters of water and have a real range of 1600 km
Rather than requiring the battery to be drained every 300 km

So, if you want to do 600 km, it should be conceivable to bring with you a can of 10 liters of water to fill up after 300 km.

And where to dispose of the aluminum hydroxide already produced

[Christophe]

The emptying it can be a question of volume / surface ratio at the level of the heat pump and / or of hydroxide concentration which requires fresh water not to "poison" the reaction after a while ??

Obviously one could imagine putting 2 water tanks of 40L: one for "fresh" water one for used water ... I don't know why this was not done ...

ps: this subject has similar points (global assessment ...) with the Cornish H2 generator: https://www.econologie.com/forums/generateur ... t2258.html

[chatelot16]

in my opinion if the autonomy is only 300km is that it takes more water than that ... because the evacuation of alumina must lose water

and I'm afraid that it doesn't just consume water ... that the alumina is rejected with electrolyte, and that we need to add more

I come back to the zinc battery: in the type of caustic potassium electrolyte

when the battery is discharged the zinc is eaten and the potash enriched with zincate ... when we are flat we have the choice to recharge the battery by electrical method, or change the zinc and change the electrolyte to recycle everything separately

but what a pain to handle solid zinc and dangerous caustic potash

if you want a faster method than electric recharging there is always the change of battery as if it were batteries

and there is no need to look for anything else: the future of electric vehicles is the batteries easy to change, with a single type for a large number of vehicles, and adaptation to the power of the vehicle only by the number of element

the nickel zinc battery would be ideal for this use, because not too expensive in raw material ... are defect being a limited lifespan without disassembly ... but the interchangeable battery facilitate periodic fitness

[Christophe]

Bonjour à tous

A passionate and French specialist in electric vehicles, Olivier Daniélo, sent me today a link to a post on his blog “Objectif Terre” which contains very relevant information on the aluminum-air range extender ( PAAA) from Phinergy. See

http://objectifterre.over-blog.org/2014 ... nergy.html


In this post, you will find a link to a Youtube video of Obama's visit to Israel in which the cameraman captured a conversation between the president of Phinergy, the company's technical director and President Obama. Here is the link for the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRlxwTNnq9E

We learn several interesting details:


usually the electric car runs on its Li-ion battery for daily trips
when unloaded the Phinergy PAAA embarks and allows an intermediate sedan to travel at 90 km / h
the amount of water required every 300 km is around 15 liters (the president of Phinergy shows a jug containing approximately this amount in the video saying that this is what it takes for 300 km)
the price of aluminum when returning aluminum hydroxide (waste from the AAAA) is approximately $ 0,50 per kilogram
the change of aluminum plates would be done at the dealership once or twice a year and takes 30 minutes (to calculate approximately $ 60 of labor in the cost of refueling Aluminum)


We deduce that the PAAA of Phinergy has a power which is between 15 kw and 20 kw because of the limitation on the speed. This is the reason why Phinergy mentions a potential range of 1600 km, which even there must be seen as very optimistic. In addition, the cost of a full tank of aluminum will be essentially the same as that of gasoline, as we will see a little later.

In another post from Olivier on “Objectif Terre”, dealing with the same subject, dated June 11, 2014

http://objectifterre.over-blog.org/2014 ... inium.html

he gives another very relevant reference, an interview with the president of Phinergy, which we find here

http://roelofreineman.com/blog/electric ... yinterview

By listening to the interview portions available, we learn that:


one kg of aluminum gives 4 kwh of electricity (so 25 kg will give 80 kwh of electrical energy (about 20 kg are used))
service stations should collect “used” water containing aluminum hydroxide and fill up with water for free as they resell aluminum hydroxide to Alcoa (revenue)


Note that the 80 kWh of available electrical energy is roughly the same amount found in the Tesla Model S Li-ion battery, which gives it 425 km of autonomy according to the EPA. However, an electric car with an AAAA will certainly be lighter than the model S and its speed is limited to 90 km / h. We can therefore assume a real range of around 800 km with 25 kg of aluminum. It would take 50 kg of aluminum to reach 1600 km.

The calculation of full aluminum therefore gives, for 800 km, approximately $ 12,50 (25 kg of Aluminum @ $ 0,50 / kg), say $ 30 to cover collection and distribution at service stations and dealers as well as a reasonable profit. To this must be added the $ 60 of labor at the dealership, resulting in a full tank of about $ 90 for 800 km. However, the Chevrolet Volt requires 50 liters of petrol to travel 800 km with its range extender (@ 6,3 liters / 100 km). And at what price will gasoline be in 2017 when cars equipped with AAPA go on the market? It is currently $ 1,40 in Quebec and we can certainly expect $ 1,80 and more in 2017. It would therefore be $ 90 for the 50 liters required by the Chevrolet Volt, the same price as to make the full of aluminum.

Note that with a real range of 800 km instead of 1600 km, with 25 kg of aluminum, the car with an AAAA will emit half the greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions of a Chevrolet Volt, not 4 times less as I had calculated in a previous post, assuming a range of 1 km. But remember that the PAAA will be used only for 600% of the annual mileage of a car, and that its GHG emissions would correspond to a car consuming 10 liters / 3 km for this 100%. Besides aluminum is recyclable which is not the case with petroleum.

In the light of all the new information, it appears that the main weak point of the aluminum-air range extender (PAAA) is its low power (15 to 20 kw) which limits the maximum speed to 90 km / h. In terms of accelerations, it is always possible to reserve 1 to 2 kw of the AAAA to recharge the Li-ion battery so that we can accelerate in a sporty way using it for periods of less than say 30 seconds or a minute.

We will therefore have to minimize the energy consumption of the car as much as possible, which I will cover in my next email.


Sincerely

Pierre Langlois, Ph.D., physicist

ps: Olivier Daniélo, this name vaguely says something ... Ah here it is: https://www.econologie.com/des-micro-alg ... -3366.html

[chatelot16]

$ 0,5 / kg for aluminum? even with recovery of aluminum hydroxide I do not believe it

need transportation to return to large aluminum factories

to extend the range it is either the good old thermal engine which has the advantage of using a simple liquid fuel or interchangeable batteries like batteries

a good electric car will have to accept batteries of various types: lead to make the cheapest possible when a low autonomy is enough

lithium when you want a long battery life

nickel zinc when it comes back into fashion: nickel zinc batteries have been used: the energy yield is good: the total lifespan is long: the only drawback is the need for frequent disassembly to avoid short circuits between plates