Wind Turbine Efficiency Discussions

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FALCON_12
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Wind Turbine Efficiency Discussions




by FALCON_12 » 30/01/24, 19:30

Hello,


I would like to conduct a survey regarding your intuition regarding a question.

The simple idea: instead of turning a thin propeller, I push back a solid disc which opposes the wind much more!

In the following diagram, visible here:
,
we see a wind turbine which sweeps a surface S and a vector V0 perpendicular to S, this is the wind.

On the right, a disk D with the same surface S but full is represented. This disk is like the wind turbine opposed to the wind.

Let us assume that the wind turbine produces each duration T, an energy E1.

Let us also admit that for the same duration T the disk pushed by the wind moves backwards
at speed V1 over a length d and we can recover the energy that the work of the force F which
grows product. This work, therefore this energy, is worth E2=dF

Without doing any calculations Which of E1 or E2 do you think is greater?
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by Christophe » 30/01/24, 19:46

E2 wins...but you're going to have to complete the cycle...or find a very, very long rail... : Cheesy:
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FALCON_12
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by FALCON_12 » 30/01/24, 19:55

Christophe wrote:E2 wins...but you're going to have to complete the cycle...or find a very, very long rail... : Cheesy:


Response noted Christophe. I hope it doesn't influence other readers!
For the rest we'll discuss it later, if you want... :?
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by izentrop » 30/01/24, 20:11

Good idea for moving a boat, but not for transforming wind energy into electricity.
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by FALCON_12 » 30/01/24, 20:18

izentrop wrote:Good idea for moving a boat, but not for transforming wind energy into electricity.


E1>E2 or the opposite?
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by sicetaitsimple » 30/01/24, 20:40

I think this is the statement that is false: in both cases, you presuppose that an air flow of surface S (that of the wind turbine or the solid disk arrives at a uniform speed V0 perpendicular to this wind turbine or to this disk.
If this is I think not far from being the case for the wind turbine, which should not or very little disturb the profile of the upstream flow, it is obviously different for the full disk, it will be necessary that the air go somewhere! Hence the development of radial velocity components well upstream of the “contact” of the incident flow with the disk.
In short, I think that “intuition” in fluid mechanics is certainly a bad advisor.
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by gegyx » 30/01/24, 21:03

izentrop wrote:Good idea for moving a boat forward,...


YES, to avoid the use and therefore the manipulation of sail changes..
No doubt simpler, but less efficient.

The essential equipment will be an adequate rotation of the mast following the winds, but possibly automatically controlled by motorization.

But without motorization, feathering would become manual : Cheesy:
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by sicetaitsimple » 30/01/24, 21:10

If Christophe has a little time, he who owns and masters software that works well (see the studies of his trailer), he can perhaps do a little simulation for us:

-100m diameter disk (a 2 to 3MW wind turbine)
-air speed in open field upstream say 10m/s

just to see the face of the speed profile upstream of the disk.
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by FALCON_12 » 30/01/24, 21:32

sicetaitsimple wrote:If Christophe has a little time, he who owns and masters software that works well (see the studies of his trailer), he can perhaps do a little simulation for us:

-100m diameter disk (a 2 to 3MW wind turbine)
-air speed in open field upstream say 10m/s

just to see the face of the speed profile upstream of the disk.


In the meantime, what would you say? E1>E2?
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Re: Let's intuit together...




by FALCON_12 » 30/01/24, 21:35

gegyx wrote:
izentrop wrote:Good idea for moving a boat forward,...


YES, to avoid the use and therefore the manipulation of sail changes..
No doubt simpler, but less efficient.

The essential equipment will be an adequate rotation of the mast following the winds, but possibly automatically controlled by motorization.

But without motorization, feathering would become manual : Cheesy:


What would you say? E1>E2?
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