WHAT TO CHOOSE? Calculator problem with the electric car

[RIAZ]

The efficiency of the thermal power plant that produced these kWh, whether nuclear, coal or fuel oil, is 1/3

this is not true for nuclear energy, which is an energy whose flux is captured (it is not a stock energy like fossil fuels) like wind or solar or to a lesser extent hydroelectricity (at l times flow but which is stocked). So the efficiency of 1/3 for nuclear power does not make sense or you have to count in the efficiency of a wind turbine all the wind that passes by and that is not used .

Nuclear power begins at the mine, then we prepare the fuel to be usable, we load it into the reactor and we discharge the residues of "combustion", like coal except for techno ... The yield of 1/3 is moreover perfectly visible in the form of the plume of steam escaping from the cooling towers, showing where the lost 2/3 go ....

The efficiency of wind turbines has a theoretical limit which is well known, it is the Betz limit which indicates that we can "extract" at most 16/27 of the energy of the intercepted air flow. And we can not consider that the 11/27 not captured are lost. What could be considered lost is the heat produced by the friction of the air on the blades.

A thermal power station, coal, fuel or uranium 235 "undergoes" the Carnot principle and has nothing to do with a wind turbine ...

Michel

[Christophe]

It seems to me (I still haven't read in detail) that we are redoing here the calculations already done for a long time here: Transportation-electric / electric-car-and-heat-balance-well-a-la-wheel-t10080.html

[RIAZ]

The main objective is to drastically reduce GHG emissions by leaving carbon-based fuels; if you do not feel concerned, it is indeed in your interest to go your way (there is the stock market to speculate, and all kinds of other means) ...

If you read what I wrote, you will not be able to conclude that I am not concerned by the reduction of GHG.
And if you are really trying to understand what would really happen with an evolution of the car fleet leading to an increase in electric consumption, in nuclear-powered France but connected with its neighbors, you would see that this is not won for CO2. And the current EV offer of its kind, to be reasonable, from the ZOE at 20 kWh / 100km, does not help the case.

We want EVs before having:
1 / reduces the energy need for individual mobility (except Christophe with his road ULM ) by technical and societal organization means.
2 / modified the energy mix by massively increasing the share of renewable.

And with that, we go into the wall.

Michel

[Did67]

In this table, we are assuming the current produced in thermal power plants ...

For gas, with the latest turbines, I think we are doing much better than 0,41 of output. Cf this info made by EdF:

"The CCG plant, equipped with the most recent General Electric technology, offers record technical and environmental performance:
- efficiency of almost 62% against 58% for a conventional GCC and 37% for a conventional coal-fired power plant

I do not think that on factual data, they lie. I had already read something on the side of 60% on Siemens power stations ...

[Christophe]

A clarification: on the VW e-up, the battery, guaranteed 8 years, is included in the price list [17 to 600 euros including tax, bonus or super-bonus deducted]

a) For what price of an equivalent thermal model (habitability, comfort ... let's put aside autonomy obviously)? This is what we have to compare ...

b) You know that I am, historically, against the aids or subsidies that plump up market prices and go into the pockets of sellers or manufacturers ... it's simply a reverse tax!

Not to mention the fact that these aids are given "at the head of the industrialist" (some equipment being more subsidized than others) ...

I remember well that you yourself mentioned the ökofen boilers sold in Germany "X €" cheaper than in France, X being the amount of the French subsidy (or tax credit or I do not know what aid precisely). .

The PV market is a glaring example: when the aid stopped, the price of solar panels "miraculously" fell ...

In December 2018, we find prices at 1 € / Wp which currently make PV profitable WITHOUT any subsidy or aid!

Table corner calculation:

- 3000 € invests = 3000Wp
- 160Wp / m2
- Surface: 3000/160 = 18,8 m²
- Average production in France: let's take 1300 kWh / m².year according to https://www.econologie.com/carte-france ... -gisement/
- Yield: 16%
- Production 1300 * 0,16 * 18,8 = 3900 kWh
- kWh cost: 0.15 € in France, saving 3900 * 0.15 = € 585 savings

Back WITHOUT HELP none: 5 years when before without aid or subsidy a system was NEVER profitable ... more we produce CLEANER energy ... we pay much more for organic, why not for l 'green energy?

Add the price of the inverter (+/- 1000 €) and the installation (for non-DIYers) ...to perfect the calculation and we will fall to 7 years of simple ROI (without taking into account the future and mandatory increases) and "natural" not pipo-subsidized!

In Belgium the kWh is at 28 cents (hey yes !!!) ... which makes installation twice as interesting!

Well I think the same thing will happen with the electric car: stopping bonuses will naturally lower prices ...

[RIAZ]

A clarification: on the VW e-up, the battery, guaranteed 8 years, is included in the price list [17 to 600 euros including tax, bonus or super-bonus deducted]

I used the comparison made by QUE CHOISIR between the CLIO and the ZOE for the only fuel item. The rest of the calculations are so convoluted that you can't find your little ones. And for the ZOE and 15000 km / year, it's € 99 per month!

If we follow the subject, even from a distance, we know that there is no economic advantage and that the opposite would be known and would be seen in sales. But the manufacturers may have understood that it was a dead end and are making a margin on ultra-solvent customers ...

And as, under current conditions which are not ready to change, there is no environmental advantage ....

Michel

[RIAZ]

In this table, we are assuming the current produced in thermal power plants ...

For gas, with the latest turbines, I think we are doing much better than 0,41 of output. Cf this info made by EdF:

"The CCG plant, equipped with the most recent General Electric technology, offers record technical and environmental performance:
- efficiency of almost 62% against 58% for a conventional GCC and 37% for a conventional coal-fired power plant

I do not think that on factual data, they lie. I had already read something on the side of 60% on Siemens power stations ...

Yes, combined cycle gas power plants do exist, but a bit like flying fish, they are not (unfortunately) characteristic of the species!
How many% of world production are to be credited? And which CCG EDF is installing?

Michel

[RIAZ]

It seems to me (I still haven't read in detail) that we are redoing here the calculations already done for a long time here: Transportation-electric / electric-car-and-heat-balance-well-a-la-wheel-t10080.html]

Yes Christophe, and I know this table well

[Did67]

We cannot put a simple equation here, without the return of "chestnut trees": I just sketched a "calculation" of the corner of the table to know whether or not, the EV fatally leads to the CO² balance of France.

I answer that on condition of seeing the EV as a pack with a photovoltaic installation, that does not lead to the carbon footprint AND it's not such a bad calculation (contrary to what is stated in this thread, so far). And provided you can put around 30 euros on the table (or have them funded) ...

And wham, now the disaster is the subsidies. So you have to be against it because of the subsidies ... And then, we are surprised that nothing never moves. And that it is better to break than to build ...

I leave the choice.

And I maintain that unless proof that my calculation is wrong, I consider that the purchase of an EV (subsidized therefore since I took over the subsidized price) and a corresponding PV installation is something that should not be discounted ( even if I have to win the lottery to get out the 30 euros cash).

And I let others be against everything and for anything without ever proposing something that changes concretely - considering that in any case, it will not be perfect, will benefit the capitalists, will make it possible to save the automobile industry, is not accessible to the poor, etc etc ...

[Christophe]

And provided you can put around 30 euros on the table (or have them funded) ...

1) My remark "all those who have a renewable electricity production at home to get into the electric car" on which you bounced implied "already a renewable electricity production" ... so that can not be budgeted in choosing an EV

2) I just showed that PV prices have collapsed: for € 4000 you have a 3kWp installation ...

Ikea (pub gratos) even gets started!

So how many kWp does it take to power an electric car? At 20 kWh / 100 km "taken at the wheel" we have for 15 km:

15 km per year = 000 * 15/000 = 20 kWh

It's less than the simulation I just did ... 2.5 kWp would be enough ... so 2500 + 1000 € = 3500 € investment ...

So 3500 € for road energy autonomy for more than 20 years is not expensive paid !! Even if it was 5000 € it would be cheap ... it would be 250 € per year or bin 4 or 5 full! And no more remote "CO2" problem (the CO2 ROI of solar PV manufacturing is 3 years maximum, 1,5 years at best in France ...) ...

Oops I forgot the road TAXES !!!