The false crisis automakers?

[Woodcutter]

Obamot Hi!

The breakdown statistics by brand do not mean much, if we omit to say the quantity of vehicle sold, if for example we have a Dodge Caravan sold at 1.5 million copies and we compare a Toyota Sienna sold at 90 copies , you can be almost assured that there will be fewer complaints of breakdowns. [...]

No !
The breakdown stats are made according to the number of vehicles sold (otherwise it makes no sense ...)

[pb2488]

[...] You have an unfortunate propensity to divert my remarks or to interpret them wrongly ...

Frankly Citro: are you surprised?
He does that with everyone ...

Uh ... nice .... slightly defamatory statement, and above all never verified or rather the opposite (read the answer I gave him, I actually did not divert anything).
Anyway, by force, I am used to: I am accused of this whenever I am not of the general opinion of the forum...too bad.
Sorry, if I don't find it logical / realistic to say:
- Car manufacturers slow progress with 2 feet.
- The current growth rebound in the automobile market does not diminish the power of manufacturers not to offer more minimalist vehicles.
Especially that I have already been criticized for misinterpreting (with the insults that was going well), except it turned out that it was rather the opposite .... ( https://www.econologie.com/forums/quelles-energies-pour-propulser-la-voiture-de-demain-ifp-t8637-60.html )
So, let's stop arguing about my case, keep cool ... we are not there to fight but rather to try to debate and to see the history, I do not believe to say stupid ....
Cdlt

[Christophe]

Obamot Hi!

The breakdown statistics by brand do not mean much, if we omit to say the quantity of vehicle sold, if for example we have a Dodge Caravan sold at 1.5 million copies and we compare a Toyota Sienna sold at 90 copies , you can be almost assured that there will be fewer complaints of breakdowns. [...]

No !
The breakdown stats are made according to the number of vehicles sold (otherwise it makes no sense ...)

+1 and +1
And note made on the subject dedicated to breakdowns: https://www.econologie.com/forums/voitures-c ... t8710.html

Are there no Rolls in the ranking? Strange

[delnoram]

stop with your "2CV of modern times" which would make 1 L / 100km. .

Not this one would say !!!

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... YE8nDJ.pdf

[Former Oceano]

Stop with the 2 CV. My 2CV6 was eating more than my Skoda Félicia GLXi. In addition, she drank 2L of oil per 1000 km.
It was a self-draining engine. The oil was renewed in 5000 km ...
Almost a Traban 2T

To say that few people want a low-cost, low-consumption, unattended car from all sides is wrong.
There are quite a few who, like me, would like less but will have to settle for more because there is no less.
I don't like power steering, air conditioning. This already restricts the possible cars.
I just have to watch the fog lights and the foldable rear seat 1/3 2/3 and I find myself immediately in the mid-range with ... Power steering, manual air conditioning etc etc ...

In short, today, thanks to the internet and the automation of the production chain, we should be able to configure our vehicle as we want.
Of course, for those who want to resell it every 2 or 3 years to buy another, it is better that it is all options.
But we are on a consumer product and no longer on a vehicle used for transport.

If you want a fuel-efficient car: VW Polo Blue Motion : 3,3 L / 100 km, 89g CO2 / km. The engine goes from 1L4 to 1L2 for 75CV.
Or for 7CV more than my titine a consumption divided by 2

[I Citro]

Sorry, if I don't find it logical / realistic to say:
- Car manufacturers slow progress with 2 feet.

Well, I gave examples ...
For 40 years, we have known that the electrification of peripherals has made it possible to considerably improve efficiency by eliminating substantial losses.
It started with the engine cooling fan and then we stopped there instead of continuing ...
- We have not yet generalized 100% electric power steering lighter and economical to manufacture and fuel.
- The more compact and more reliable electric air conditioners are only available on some hybrids whose engine stops at red light ...
- Electric water pumps with variable flow are always delayed.
- I pass on the hole for the valve of the inner tube which we continue to make in the same place in the rims while the inner tubes disappeared 40 years ago ...
Currently, it takes less than 30 months to decide, create and market a vehicle ... But it is still manufactured with many existing elements instead of putting everything flat.

[Obamot]

... yes absolutely Citro, we must remember that the first President shiso from the United States (I like this one too much) gave innovation as a sine qua non condition to get the industry out of the abyss ... and the other apple insisted on this too ...

Finally you can add that when there is innovation, it is immediately oriented as a profit center - but for the benefit of which ... to make the challand (... pig) dependent.

[pb2488]

CITRO: I understand your examples, there are lots of technologies, apparently promising (but not revolutionary), which are in development and not yet marketed on a large scale, but that does not mean that manufacturers are braking 2 feet on progress to sell more fuel-efficient cars, on the contrary: Technologies are appearing, things are progressing but it is not always as easy / fast as we think, there are many constraints. (In aero, it's worse and yet, they invest even more in R&D, only the qualifiers are very long and there is no possible error in reliability). Despite everything, the manufacturers try to do the best and as quickly as possible (even if it's long) so as not to be overtaken by the competitors. The list of those who have gone bankrupt for lack (and I'm not talking about refusal, just lack) or bad innovation / adaptation is very long: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructeurs_automobiles#Les_disparus
They give way to a list of survivors and new players more innovative and more in tune with the market than these disappeared ... until the following. Peugeot, Renault, Fiat, Ford are more than 100 years old, I doubt that they have succeeded in enduring suddenly bad strategic choices without taking into account consumer demand ...
This is the case for any market in (real) competition and, what is more, that of the automobile is on the world level, it is not negligible. Especially since now, there is no longer even a need to be a car manufacturer from birth to make cars (see Bolloré). Competitors can emerge from all directions.
So, come up with strategies which would consist of "slowing down two feet on progress": I do not see how the automobile market could give way to this kind of dubious and obscure maneuver doomed to suicide. It seems to me impossible that they all agreed to slow down on the innovations under the pretext that this would allow, supposedly, to make more profits. Even if there may be from time to time, between some a few agreements, the list of those who have sunk would tend to suggest that they are not together and that everyone wants a bigger slice of the pie.
So, I don't see how the current market growth could influence (in the wrong way) their decisions to change their offers towards very economical vehicles .....
Cdlt

[Obamot]

"Suicide", the word is dropped. [Edit] It is probably not used in the right context. Here is my opinion.

It took me a long time to get into this thread, because it took me a while to "digest" its title ... It can leave you doubtful but ultimately it is appropriate. I will not discuss the repercussions / implications due to the financial crisis (there would be a lot to say) but the structural disorders specific to companies in the branch (see elsewhere in the industry and even in the tertiary sector: administrative, financial etc. ..)

What seems to me to characterize this crisis is a retrograde attitude of certain leaders and senior officials, and not so much of cartel agreements, as rather the beast "resistance to change who would have changed sidesIn short, we simply put incapable people in places they should never have occupied.

Among them, these HR managers - newly landed - who imagined through "new management" (coming straight from across the Atlantic) they had found the panacea to their problem: either of "conduire"the staff. As if the simple fact of having described the problem was enough to apprehend it using reassuring techniques taught during "high-flying seminars" which, alas, could have been used to humanize the man and make the work fascinating rather than relying on "operating methods" and "models"...

They were totally wrong amha. THE MASTER WORD that had to be found was: TRUST and not governance through FEAR, as it is true that we were / have fallen back into the trap of the three "CONs" of the beginning of the modern industrial era and dear to Mc Gregor. To know:

withto take, withtreach and withto trôl. No, sometimes it got worse! Since the staff has also been: destabilized.

While at the same time we talk to him about "Early prevention" as well as "Corporate culture". (It is also a great success among those who apply these principles with ethical rules and a dreadful disaster among others).

Where did the healthy go "man's motivation at work" dear to Masslow?

And supposed to bring the man to "the ultimate fulfillment" through his professional career.

The new management is synonymous with increasingly unbearable "constraints" of all kinds and even coercion, when in principle it was necessary to do the opposite: that employees progress on their own (basic rule of elementary psychology) and become emancipated in the company. We chose the sidestep, short-sighted profits and sometimes without any specific objectives. It is the first stage of the direct application of a flawed theory based on a historically erroneous postulate: "the employee is not motivated by nature" - "he is therefore a priori himself guilty of its status " - you have to watch it (I am not far from what I observed in my explanation, but in fact it is much more serious ...) so the "motivated employee" is once again "enslaved employee", the difference is sizeable, it no longer places "the man" at the center of concerns.

The proof that it is much more serious: suicides in paddle in this branch of industry, even in telecoms and administration (we are only talking about it now ...) employees have completely lost their bearings and do not know more to trust.

So it is quite simply a failure, because the executives have failed in the mission of putting all the forces of the company "to work" thanks to daring and innovation.

Why? The button press generation has arrived and with it the internet. Everything is immediately available in two steps three clicks ... We zap on careers as on skills. "Freedom" is within everyone's reach, but we no longer really know how to integrate it into the "workspace" ...

The real indecrotters are these incompetent people whose role was to find innovative management solutions. They are probably the only ones who are still "resistant to change" in today's professional life which has become so ... "modern". By relying on "solutions" sold and come from elsewhere, but absolutely not adapted to the situation, they had to acquire the "power" necessary to retain their prerogatives (not to say something else when speaking of a real system of predation in the most extreme cases. .).

Today there are hardly any unsaved employees, whose daily challenge is to challenge themselves while adopting a low profile so as not to be noticed ...

It is so true that at Renault, it is in R&D that employees have been the most affected by the wave of “suicides” shaking the world of work ...

[Leo Maximus]

If you want to know the company that has made the most of the hay statistically thanks to the "repair profit center" ... it's Renault. They are the ones who calculated the most wisely how much money they could pump out to their customer AFTER the warranty period. I myself have experienced this with the "presidential car" (the R30) at the time I bought the "small model" (R20) with the same comfort but displacement of 2l. (based on 3l engine specs) serious error ... the timing belt. dropped (when it was a chain on the 3l.) answer of the mechanic "we have to earn our living" ...

The R Nevada, reminder of the clutch pedal in .... nylon. I couldn't believe my eyes that day. Cost of repair and replacement CHF 660.—. After the repeated problems I had with BMW (rear axle and cost of repairs in general) Volvo (injection on the 245 and belts on CVT transmissions given at 50 km, but which dropped after 000) Opel (brake discs and suspensions) Fiat (corrosion) Citroën (special tools for repairs and corrosions) I was fed up with the Europeans, then Ford Capri (auto ignition and dreadful handling) - the Americans I don't even talk about it with all the problems encountered by my friends ... in short. Since I drive in Japan, I have not had any notorious worries with vehicles which had already driven a lot.

Same for me. I switched from Renault to Honda a long time ago for the same reasons and I also found that the Japanese were much more advanced than the French, contrary to what was said at the time (copied and archaic products).

Michel Rocard said that Renault (in the time of RNUR) received subsidies for each car produced. For the R20 and R30 it was 40000 and 70000 francs per car! One wonders where all that money went ...