Delete the individual vehicle?

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
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elephant
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by elephant » 19/01/10, 08:58

There is no shortage of combined and alternative solutions, and as ptilu said, account must be taken of the specific features. The increase in frequencies is unfortunately very expensive, because it must PRECEDE the demand: if there is a reliable and flexible offer, for example to take the inhabitants of a suburb to the station, then people will use it, or currently , people shun CT by lack of speed, flexibility, frequency.

Chatelot said: Image Ptilu said: (modify Delnoram)

But the commercial 10am on the road at the time of the video conference I find it hard to understand ... And besides, nothing prevents him from taking the TGV;)

No:
1) nothing replaces the physical presence on site (especially if you have to "go and see" the facilities) plus non-verbal messages.
2) try for example to make Courcelles (industrial suburb of Charleroi) - Alleur (industrial suburb of Liège) by public transport: if you can do it in less than 3 hours, I'll pay you plums! By car it's been an hour for 6 euros of diesel! Your boss pays you to see your customers!

In the job I did in 2008, the rule was pretty much this:
450 km: car (departure 5-6 hours, return 22h)
600 km: same, with authorization to stay at the hotel
beyond: plane + train + taxi or car rental
It is obvious that I managed to go on tour, even if it means staying half a day at the hotel, connected to the company thanks to the hotel's WiFi.
My son decided to emigrate to Brussels to avoid the shuttles, but, even there, he happens to telework to save 2 hours of transport (he is a computer scientist)

In short: everyone has their own solution
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minguinhirigue
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by minguinhirigue » 19/01/10, 08:59

I quite agree with the principle of "removing the individual vehicle". But the term is exaggerated. They cannot take away this freedom.

But let's be realistic, all isolated areas must start with a decrease:
- setting up of small capacity common routes (mini-bus)
- net increase in train service in certain directions (unlike you citro, I think that in certain regions, the train can reduce car traffic, or at least absorb its growth, like Alsace)
- attention of the municipalities to the coverage in service at reasonable distances: less than 10 kilometers for schools, services, shops of first necessity (possible on most of the French territory, the Creuse like other regions of the world sparsely populated is less adapted to this mutation :D )

And I am fully bernardd on the fact that the taxi can provide almost everywhere a service much richer than what is currently done, but for that they would have to agree to leave the operating mode "prestige" which allows them a profit Great !

Furthermore, with regard to teleworking, agreeing that it will develop, it can provide a non-negligible service, but it is essential to have direct relations in the majority of cases.
Last edited by minguinhirigue the 19 / 01 / 10, 10: 31, 1 edited once.
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by oiseautempete » 19/01/10, 09:59

minguinhirigue wrote:I quite agree with the principle of "removing the individual vehicle". But the term is exaggerating. They cannot take away this freedom.

But let's be realistic, all isolated areas must start with a decrease:
- setting up of small capacity common routes (mini-bus)
- net increase in train service in certain directions (unlike you citro, I think that in certain regions, the train can reduce car traffic, or at least absorb its growth, like Alsace)
immigration :D )


Furthermore, with regard to teleworking, agreeing that it will develop, it can provide a non-negligible service, but it is essential to have direct relations in the majority of cases.


"Eliminating the individual vehicle" is completely illusory, precisely in Alsace, there are plenty of examples of the deletion of worker bus lines because employment is too dispersed and the number of people to be transported too small, so the filling rate vehicles very insufficient even with minibuses (you have to pay for fuel, drivers (who are VERY poorly paid and their job is DANGEROUS especially in town where there are many attacks) and depreciation of rolling stock ... Especially in Alsace, the small train lines are preserved, for many only hold thanks to the financial support of the region: an example of partial success is the Colmar Munster line which, although not profitable at all 10 years ago, has been modernized, the equipment driving faster and less greedy, the number of transports x2 and a filling rate ended up being "almost" sufficient to amortize the costs ... We are not even talking about earning money!
Otherwise, in case you are not aware, the workers massively share carpooling when possible, which is far from obvious given the very complex organization of work in the factories (3,4,5, 8xXNUMX, dynamic hours, etc.)
The train is only ecologically and economically valid when the filling rate is sufficient, otherwise it is catastrophic because the equipment is very expensive, heavy, therefore requires powerful machines, the construction / maintenance of extremely expensive tracks, and it is necessary pay staff well ...
Teleworking many dream of it, but only a privileged minority can really benefit from it (paper scrapers whose longevity is already 20% greater than that of workers ...) When to "direct relations", see the kind of relationships that there are within a modern factory: here and there, you see people (most often highly qualified) dispersed who work almost alone in the middle of a huge park of automated machines and robots ... the relationship between people mainly concerns salespeople, less and less production ...
When it comes to spreading out workplaces, it can be explained in the same way: it takes fewer and fewer people to create a certain volume of production, but the area required does not decrease ... and dispersion leads to need for individual transport: no more large companies or thousands of people arrived simultaneously, often housed in the same places, perfect situation for public transport.
Those who use private vehicles the most are often those in the most precarious situation; ex: a staff of a cleaning company or other personal services companies: several "sites" to deal with in the same day = incessant trips, all for a modest income, and this type of employment is developing on a large scale speed nowadays ...
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by bernardd » 19/01/10, 10:09

oiseautempete wrote:The train is only ecologically and economically valid when the filling rate is sufficient, otherwise it is catastrophic because the equipment is very expensive, heavy, therefore requires powerful machines, the construction / maintenance of extremely expensive tracks, and it is necessary pay staff well ...


I do not understand why there are no small light trains, aluminum + resin, for 10 or 20 people: we could do without problem, and with the almost absence of friction bearings ...

All that remains is to make the passengers pedal or row: 200Wx20 passengers, that makes 4KW all the same, on flat like the rails, it would be almost enough :-)
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by minguinhirigue » 19/01/10, 10:29

For Alsace, I know that the operating costs of the lines are massively subsidized (average Lorraine Alsace: 70% subsidized by the region!).

But for as much, the road is it also, by means much more obscure and dispersed than the train: to see the sales of infrastructures, initially paid by the taxpayers, sold to some majors of public works in recent years ... see maintenance costs dispersed over a myriad of local authorities ... see ...

These are public investments, it would be necessary to do the accounts to be able to assert straight away: rail is more expensive than road.

I am not sure that the equation is so simple to solve, but I am sure that the systems are complementary:
- essential route for operators in dispersed work areas.
- rail essential for massive transport at lower cost between all cities (> 2000 inhabitants according to French regulations!).

Incidentally, I know that carpooling is used massively by workers and I hope it will remain, it is ecologically, economically AND SOCIALLY positive.

PS: I want to see the commuters pedaling on the rails :D
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oiseautempete
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by oiseautempete » 19/01/10, 12:03

minguinhirigue wrote:- rail essential for massive transport at lower cost between all cities (> 2000 inhabitants according to French regulations!).



It is certainly the best system when there are large distances connecting large crowded metropolises, like for example. Lille residents who will work on Paris by TGV, but over short distances and small towns it is much less obvious ...
A train cannot be ultra light because it needs a certain mass (low center of gravity) to ensure its stability when cornering, however recent equipment is much lighter than the old ... When using composites, very environmentally unfriendly materials both in manufacturing and in recycling, and moreover at very high costs: we must forget ... not to mention that current standards impose passive safety in the event of an accident ...
A light train is called a bus and in addition it is not obliged to follow fixed rails ...
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by minguinhirigue » 19/01/10, 13:29

For composites, I think that the lines of the Colmar-Metzeral type are or Remilly-Metz (small distance between medium metropolis and small town) are largely competitive with the road in terms of cost and improvement of commercial traffic (freight, tourism , commuting) ... If you want to see a country where this kind of installation works on a country scale, look at Switzerland.

For composites, seeing only their costs would mean forgetting their advantages: weight, plasticity (matrix plastics), diversity of use ...
Alstom quote
The use of composite materials and the improvement of the efficiency of the traction systems made it possible to reduce the mass and energy consumption by 10%. A Citadis Dualis thus consumes in kWh / seated passenger, 4 times less than a bus and 10 times less than a car.

Yes, ok Alstom is there to sell, they have to take occupancy rates of 80% instead of the average 30% noted on other lines, it remains a notable saving.

In addition, one of the ways of passive safety is the monocoque design (more general rigidity, possibility of dispersing energy over a larger area), to which composites are perfectly suited: high resistance for low "high" weight (lowering center of gravity.)
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by Former Oceano » 19/01/10, 14:28

First remark, it all depends on the vehicle concerned.
The bicycle is a human powered vehicle. The Porsche Cayenne is a fossil-powered vehicle.

It all depends on the situations and the time spent on commuting to go to work. Below is a comparison of the average journeys in my case in Marseille:

By motorbike Out = 15 min, Return = 15 min (AR 30 min)
In 50cc Round = 25 min, Return = 20 min (AR 45 min)
In VAE A = 25 min, R = 35 min (AR 1H)
By mountain bike A = 35 min, R = 45 min (it goes up! AR 1h20)
By car A = 30 min, R = 55 min (it clogs up !!! AR 1h25)

In Public Transport it depends on connections and there is walking from the metro to work. When it's good, a return trip is 2 minutes + 15 minutes (bus) +15 minutes (metro) +10 minutes on foot. Total journey = 42 minutes. AR 1H34 if connections are made without waiting.

In short, it's even slower than the car ...

Then in public transport, there are those who listen to music on their walkman or phone thoroughly (something I have seen very little in Paris) and we do not necessarily like the same music (although I am very eclectic on music, much more than on movies). There are the genes who push everyone without apologizing, swinging the packages on your feet. There are those who bring it back if you have the misfortune to look at them by chance, which will cause 'heated' exchanges.
Controllers who, because of fraudsters, will sometimes cause 'crowd movements' or 'animated exchanges' ...
Although traffic is difficult in Marseille, RTM can sometimes be worse.
I admit without embarrassment prefer to take my bike or my motorbike in the rain rather than taking a bus where I risk to take my beak with a (e) con (ne).

So public transport is only as valid when people do not reason individually and respect others.
Hard isn't it?
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by Christophe » 19/01/10, 14:30

Do we not repeat the subject of the car of the future ?
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by sen-no-sen » 19/01/10, 14:59

Indeed Christophe, subjects easily fall into redundancy, but this is an area where there is so much to say ...

Deleting the individual vehicle is not possible (from an economic and ideological point of view, for the moment ...).
Instead of talking about deletion, we should talk about reduction.
The real question is which government will have the audacity to embark on such a project for society.
And anyway it will be done with sandstone (gently) or forcefully (in pain).

All the projections show the impossibility of the "American" way of life and of its energy addiction.
Projections speak of 800 million vehicles in 2025 ... in China !!!
The end of cheap oil and the price of raw materials should get the better of equation 1
people = 1 cars.
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