Doping an internal combustion engine with water vapor

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
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camel1
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by camel1 » 18/04/07, 23:57

Hi everybody !

On this subject, I can bring first-hand testimony, that of one of my brothers who has worked as a mechanic in F1 stables for fifteen years.

He explained to me that for a while (until it's forbidden : Cheesy: ) they experimented on direct water doping.
An additional injector sent water liquidin the form of droplets in the combustion chambers.

As they had the budgets and means accordingly, they could try different dosages, and see their impact on engine health.

They found that when you send too much water, the top of the pistons is cracked (he did not even talk about pecking anymore). : Shock: ) and even sometimes burst : Shock: : Shock: .

The explanation is, according to him, essentially in the thermal shock between these drops of cold water and the very hot walls, causing real mini explosions extremely eroding.

On the other hand, they found that a well-dosed doping brought about a considerable improvement of the power of the engines, knowing nevertheless that in F1, the minimum specifications, it is that the nag holds the time of a race. .. : Cheesy:

This experience is similar to that of the "boosting" with water of certain fighter planes during the Second World War, used punctually in the phases of air combat, to have a boost of power to get out of a bad time.

With steam doping, we do not talk about the same thing anymore:

First, we must not forget that in the "natural" state, a mill mainly spits out (around 70%) "dry" water vapor. It does not specially affect the life of the engine.

Secondly, the steam that we are trying to send is in the saturating phase, ie with a certain percentage of liquid water in the form of micro droplets depending on T ° and pressure.
It is sucked in at the intake, after the cylinder has exploded the exhaust gases burning from the previous explosion.
At this moment, the walls have relatively "cooled", and the contacts of these microdroplets cannot have the same consequences.
Some experimenters, who trimmed their motor after riding pantone, found that the metal had no corrosion or pecking, but was shiny (and clean).
Some, who also dismantled the low engine, and the mobile equipment, could see that the grooves of the segments were descaled, partly explaining the renewal of youth for engines a little "adventurous".

So the answer to your legitimate question about water can not be based solely on your unfortunate experience, because we simply do not do the same thing.
And I can tell you, having lived a cylinder head gasket, that the driving sensations and exhaust fumes have nothing, but then nothing to do with steam doping.

That's all I can say for now, until I change the mill of my 205 (which is well rinsed) for a better condition (oh yes, it was already well rinsed before pantone : Cheesy: )

When he is on the ground, we will have fun to decelerate him, to see ...
In a few months, I think ...

Voilou ... at +++

Michel
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by Snickers » 19/04/07, 10:32

@Andre,
I opened three times, but I never did anything except pounding (not even scared) a little between the valves on the second shot. Which had somewhat reduced my water consumption.
=> no re-segmentation
=> the striations (or stone marks) that we see on the cylinder are original… factory rectification!
This means that near 300 000 Km almost ZERO WEAR on the cylinder that has no water sight!
Aluminum parts are not corroded or really very little (piston and cylinder head)
I am not trying to repair this engine ... it is screwed ... or it would have to rectify the block, change the piston, the cylinder head, the valves, ...
It has been replaced by an XN engine from 307000 Km that turns like a clock!

@Zac,
Relative high air humidity may not have a positive impact on the life of the engine ....
I could compare that to dust. We know very well that if we remove the air filter. The wear of the engine is affected and increases significantly. It can happen the same with water ... except that the wear is not mechanical but chemical (corrosion)

@Camel1
The comparison with an engine F1 ... I want! All experiences are good to take! However, the materials used in an F1 engine have nothing to do with those of the engine of Mr. everyone ... With aircraft engines, the materials used fall into the same categories ...
As for boster actually ... it boosts but at the same time increases the amount of fuel ... it seems to me!
In my engine, there are no parts in titanium, magnesium, composite-ceramic piston and so on ...

What I wanted to bring by these qq photos ...
Corosion is mainly observed in the "flame front" at the valves.
This seems to be related to the compound that formed during the combution! Acid formation, ... I do not know. I am not a chemist.
It was rainwater, for reasons of absence of mineral salts. Which are maybe even worse!
This engine has always shot with conventional diesel stations. No bio-diesel, oil, vinegar, ...
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 19/04/07, 12:07

Me the photos I rework them with Paint or others before posting them.
I make a reduction from 50 to 75% and save it.
It's that simple.
There you make me disassemble my breech on the R5.
I did not do 100000km with water doping but 10000km.
I do not know if we can see the degradation that water could bring.
My uncle mechanic is of the same opinion as you about what we do. I know another former mechanic turned car engineer old anciennes by passion who is not the same opinion as you.
For him the water doping can actually bring a profit, the whole thing is to make an adequate realization not to deteriorate the engine.
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zac
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by zac » 19/04/07, 20:18

camel1 wrote:That's all I can say for now, until I change the mill of my 205 (which is well rinsed) for a better condition (oh yes, it was already well rinsed before pantone : Cheesy: )

When he is on the ground, we will have fun to decelerate him, to see ...
In a few months, I think ...

Voilou ... at +++

Michel


well if it's like the one of the clio of my girlfriend (almost dead before pantone); we mount the pantone we test and if it is conclusive we put a clean engine. Well it's 3 years and 50000km and it's still running so we leave. In my opinion you're not ready to change your mind 8) 8) 8)

a pantone, the engine cleans itself and afterwards it moves more; yet I am typing hard in and in tropical mountain.

@+
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by the middle » 26/04/07, 08:00

PITMIX wrote:Me the photos I rework them with Paint or others before posting them.
I make a reduction from 50 to 75% and save it.
It's that simple.
There you make me disassemble my breech on the R5.
I did not do 100000km with water doping but 10000km.
I do not know if we can see the degradation that water could bring.
My uncle mechanic is of the same opinion as you about what we do. I know another former mechanic turned car engineer old anciennes by passion who is not the same opinion as you.
For him the water doping can actually bring a profit, the whole thing is to make an adequate realization not to deteriorate the engine.

Hello,
While walking on the net, I found a site that speaks of everything, but also of steam injection, its system is explained at the bottom of the page.
But you know maybe?
http://perso.orange.fr/jf.wadel/invente.htm
Alain
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by PITMIX » 26/04/07, 20:20

I am far from having read everything so I put it in my favorite sites.
It seems like a great site full of ideas that I'm fond of.
Thank you for the link is nice.
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by Flytox » 03/05/07, 21:35

Bonjour à tous

Answer borrowed in another post:

PITMIX wrote:I really think it comes from condensation.
As long as there is not all is well, but as soon as it is finished, nothing goes.
The steam arrives at the top of the carburetor.
There is the photo on the previous page.
In the end I think that a water supply solenoid valve should be shut off when the engine is cold and when it is running at slower speed. As for operation with the reactor connected directly to the intake manifold


Look at my system on the video that follows (question quality .... this is my first video)

https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/dscn3199.avi

I added a microswitch that detects the idle position of the charge control on the injection pump.

As soon as you accelerate the three-way valve rotates automatically to position itself in the intake position (through the EGR valve port).

As soon as the accelerator is released, the idle is again detected and the valve turns a half turn to close (exhaust position)

Image
Image
Image

The idle contact also cuts off the water supply (solenoid valve) and the washer pump.

All this system, I have not yet managed to try it on the move .... : Evil: I burned a relay, a windshield washer pump, a power transistor of my step-down, the neiman switch of the car .... it's the old cars .... But you have to be patient!

My system voltage, dimmer, pump worked well on the workbench ..... but no way to make it work on the car.
(Very poor progression of the engine speed of the washer pump according to the control potentiometer coupled to the accelerator) : Cry:

A 'new' washer pump slightly different (more powerful?) Puts me in doubt. I am in the process of significantly reviewing my electric control circuit .... My friend Mathieux (electrician) gave me 2 three things to try ..... it will work! : Mrgreen:

Econologiquement yours.
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by Flytox » 17/05/07, 23:33

Bonjour à tous

Finally the first tests of my R19 Diesel:

The behavior with the steam is almost transparent for the driving impressions in the current state of the settings.

As I have modified my drawings and the car I put it back in attached files.

https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/elec22.jpg
https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/Hydro1.jpg

findings:
Below 100 km / h the temperature in the piping which brings the steam into the intake duct does not move (mark B).

- 35 ° to slow down without connection of the steam.
- 38 to 42 ° to 100 km / h with the connection of steam.

- passed the 110 km / h the temperature rises rapidly 'in 2 or 3 km to' stabilize 'between 79 and 87 ° if the water flow' programmed 'is at least 0.8 l / h.

- For a lower water flow the temperature painfully reaches 38 to 52 °.

- I chose my usual cruising speed on flat highway at 120 km / meter to perform the other tests:

- For water flow from 0.8 to 2.26 l / h the temperature stabilizes between 79 and 87 °. In fact the temperature goes from 79 to 87 and back to 1 or 2 minutes?

- The adjustment to the button (set screw) on the flow meter is easy fast and stable.

https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/debimetr.jpg

- The only problem is a bubble from time to time that distorts the reading and must be removed. (set maximum flow 3 or 4 seconds).

I finally managed to run the order .....
At the end of 15 seconds at idle it puts the steam on the exhaust position, cuts the wiper pump and the water solenoid valve. It does not cut unexpectedly at each change of speed on the contact information of the slow motion.

https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/Commande.jpg
With the flash it's a bit blurry ...

My analysis of the results:

Without a minimum temperature output of the GVI I have no steam, everything is condensed in the hurricane and leaves at the bottom of the GVI. (mini 80 °?)

The steam arrives for a speed / load too high (I would rather answer around 90 Km / h instead of 110 km / h).

I can not try the 'weak' flow of water indefinitely, when the GVI will be completely filled with water it will blow up in the intake pipe. (Dangerous)

Having very little thermally insulated my GVI and not at all the cyclone, it seems logical to attack the changes there.
This should provide steam for lower load and / or lower water flow.

I did not record the consumption because, my reference course is a mixed route: national, highway and little city.
And there, I only connected the steam on the highway for which I have no reference. A ladle is the same or slightly better?

All your comments are welcome.
Econologiquement yours.
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[Eugène Ionesco]

http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
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by Other » 18/05/07, 05:26

Hello
Without a minimum temperature output of the GVI I have no steam, everything is condensed in the hurricane and leaves at the bottom of the GVI. (mini 80 °?)

The steam arrives for a speed / load too high (I would rather answer around 90 Km / h instead of 110 km / h).


I find that it does not heat up, especially since the water is preheated with the LDR before arriving in the GV

the measured heat must be proportional to the flow of steam coming out of the GV, it gives me the impression that the cyclone and the valve make the temperature of the steam kiss.

it would be interesting to know with the steam only what effect it has on the engine Sensation acceleration?
Whatever the method of steam production.

With this system if you do not put a lot of water in the GV you do not absorb much heat and you produce little steam,
Which normally should be warmer, but the fact of circulating little fluid heat is eating out in the cyclone and valve and probably a recondensation, something to avoid the output of the reactor or in your case GV

Unlike a system or actually pass air with water mist.

We actually have to make the comparison between injecting steam alone into the inlet manifold
or injecting steam and air that has passed into the reactor to try to see if there is a difference between the two systems.
Again there is no need to draw hastily conclusions there are many things to try before like steam temperature and quantity.

In my assembly the temperature exceeds the 130c if I put little water and if I put a lot of water it rarely falls below 90c has 100kmh ..

Andre
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by Flytox » 18/05/07, 13:04

Hello André

Thank you for your wise advice.

Andre wrote:I find that it does not heat up, especially since the water is preheated with the LDR before arriving in the GV


Actually my 4 6 / 8 mm pipes that are used to heat the exhaust are too exposed for about 15 cm cooling before joining in the silicone hose that goes to the cyclone. The performance of the GVI must drop significantly.
I have to isolate that. It's limited to touching the crate ... you have an idea of ​​the insulation to use solid, thin, tape without asbestos etc .... that says 'Papa Mom' uh I'm straying! : Lol:

https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/SortieGV.JPG

Andre wrote:the measured heat must be proportional to the flow of steam coming out of the GV, it gives me the impression that the cyclone and the valve make the temperature of the steam kiss.


I made 2 or 3 spikes at 130 km / h the temperature continues to rise (97 °) but I did not vary the flow of water at that moment (set at about 1l / h). (Too much traffic to do tests serenely).

That amount heat proportional to the flow of steam leaving the SG seems logical to me.

That the temperature is "proportional" to the load seems logical to me as well.

I'm delirious or are you pretty much in agreement?

Andre wrote:it would be interesting to know with the steam only what effect it has on the engine Sensation acceleration?
Whatever the method of steam production.


This test I have to do it .....

Andre wrote:With this system if you do not put a lot of water in the GV you do not absorb much heat and you produce little steam,
Which normally should be warmer, but the fact of circulating little fluid heat is eating out in the cyclone and valve and probably a recondensation, something to avoid the output of the reactor or in your case GV


Agree with you, it is certainly a limitation of my system, it should work perfectly only with ultra short and well insulated pipes.

Andre wrote:Unlike a system or actually pass air with water mist.


In my alternatives, if my system despairs badly, it is already planned a montage or I blow hot air (70 to 80 °) at the base of my GV and another one or I blow at the exit of the GV to try to 'carry' more steam safely.

Econologiquement yours.
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[Eugène Ionesco]

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