Info Thermodynamie heat pump

[boubou]

hello, some info on the pacs (heat pumps):
1) the system. Pacs are termed two terms, the first by where the system takes its calories and the second by where it releases them. Example: Air / air, the system takes calories from the outside air and releases them into the indoor air, water / water, the system takes its calories from a water table and returns them to a heated floor or radiators, etc. . etc ...
2 °) as has already been said, the cop (coefficient of performance) of the manufacturers is given for an outside temperature of 7 ° C, it is the law that says it (for tax credits, in particular), but then, at close to 0 ° C and below, the cop can drop to 2 or even 1, and even some heat pump expends energy to defrost the device, the cop then becomes less than 1 and the heat pumps therefore become less efficient (temporarily) only convectors !!!!
3 °) the individual pacs (unlike the deep geothérmie) are not never renewable energy but energy efficiency, which is not the same thing. PACs run on electricity, and whatever the cop, this electricity is 80% nuclear, 12% renewable and the remaining 8% is from fossil combustion (coal, gas and oil). So a cap only protects the environment if it is compared to a convector set, an oil or gas heater. It is much more polluting than wood heating for example.
4 °) I advise you to contact your local energy info space (EIE), he is the most able to advise you and he (normally) has a good knowledge of your environment and local installers.
5 °) Me, I also work in an EIA, and personally I hate heat pumps, the cost of electricity is uncertain and the production will be polluting for many years to come, I even find that it is an aberration of give a tax credit for such a crappy device (some PACs contain fluorinated gases, nice for enhancing the greenhouse effect and the ozone layer !!!!!!!). Besides, I was able during the show, to discuss Off with a reseller of pac (present all over France) and even criticize his gear and will not install it at home. I advise you rather a wood heating (automatic or not) or a solar heating with additional wood. Contrary to popular belief, solar has better economic returns in the north than in the south, since the heating needs are greater.
6 °) Stop calling heat pumps: Geothermal energy. Geothermal energy requires going down to several hundred meters, we draw the calories from a sheet, which we bring to the surface, then we re-inject it for pressure problems and not to exhaust the sheet. Examples exist in Alsace or in the Paris basin. The only "surface geothermal energy" (what an aberration !!!!) that I know is the provencal well or Canadian well, which is really interesting.

[anti-atom]

Thank you all,
Thank you boubou, Your analysis answers my questions.
I'm going to take the time to think about all this, and find the best compromise between yield and ecology ...
thanks again

[I Citro]

Boubou, you're absolutely right.
But if I chose the cap, it is first to do without gas, which is not renewable either, and for later connect it to my production of solar electricity, therefore renewable.

[Philippe Schutt]

Oh dear,
BouBou, wood heating is renewable only if it is renewed. If we all heated with wood, France would quickly no longer have forests.
The PAC is generally economical compared to an oil heating, you can count on an invoice divided by 2.
but keep your fuel for the cold snaps

[boubou]

It is true, but there are more and more PEFC wood dealers (ie managed sustainably, we replant what we cut) in addition, the French forest is expanding and is the largest d 'Europe. Generally, in France, wood is considered to be renewable (unlike Africa or South America). In addition, wood heating is the renewable energy that will create the most jobs in the years to come, much more than wind turbines (or epr or iter together !!!) for example. In any case, there will never be 100% of French people who heat themselves with wood (and if everyone was running on oil, we would need 110% of French territory for rapeseed-sunflower crops, would 'we must stop driving in oil ????).
There are many alternatives for heating, but, as I saw in the forum, it is necessary first invest in insulation. In Sweden, perfectly insulated houses have 22 ° C in winter without the slightest heating !!!. It should serve as an example, but vivrélek prefers to refourguer us of gear that uses electricity, or air / air pacs that are more purchased for the summer because they are reversible air conditioners than for their heating function.
Anyway, there are no miracle recipes (apart from insulation), everyone must also choose according to their geographic area and according to the various suppliers present locally. I saw people who heated themselves with wood pellets (pellets) near Périgueux but who brought them from the Jura. Who can believe that the ecological balance of this type of heating is valid ??????

[Other]

Hello

6 °) Stop calling heat pumps: Geothermal energy. Geothermal energy requires going down to several hundred meters, we draw the calories from a sheet, which we bring to the surface, then we re-inject it for pressure problems and not to exhaust the sheet. Examples exist in Alsace or in the Paris basin. The only "surface geothermal energy" (what an aberration !!!!) that I know is the provencal well or Canadian well, which is really interesting

.

I do not think that heating with water from a shallow well (5 meters) is an aberation! , I have been working like this for a long time, I use the water which is at 12c a year long and I cool it to 4c it is measured by the flow of water and the temperature difference 12c-4c that I calculates the efficiency of the machine.
Before I was heating with convection radiators and it took more than double in amperage to heat (entrance of the house 200 amperes, like all houses heat electric according to electric regulations)
When electricity is produced mainly in Quebec with hydroelectric dams, a single nuclear power plant and a single thermal power plant built on an experimental basis, and returned to the end of their life which will no longer be renewed. there is a Danish company which has just opened a windmill factory and construction and installation are going well, there are very interesting sites with average annual wind. notably in Gaspesie it still sells.
For heating with wood there are several that have this as extra and security, but it is more laziness to operate a stove, cleaning is corve of recharging the stove wood storage ect ..
Wood there is in quantity, nothing that forest fires there are at the height of the season up to 80 fires in activity, it exceeds 300 annually just the summer period following the electrical storms of the millirs hectares leave in smoke,
there are 40 fire repair aircraft (pointers) in flight during the season, not counting the large CL215 tank aircraft. But it is not to save firewood, it is to save wood from paper mills, (Multinational)
if you want the forest to regenerate, you must replant after the cuts.

Where you should improve in France is to build isolated houses, with the mild climate you have it should cost a lot of heating, in our harsh climate I only start to heat in late October, But I have to stop comparing with you everything is different, as house constructions as your way of life.
For heating take the idea of ​​the Nordic countries,

Andre

[boubou]

Hello André!
The problem is that France is not Canada and that our nuclear power plants were not built on an experimental basis, that France plans to build an EPR (European Pressurized Reactor) in Flamanville and from Iter to Cadarache. The first is described as "safer, more competitive and more environmentally friendly" new generation "reactors" (gloups !!!) and "the EPR has accumulated all recent advances in safety, security, respect for the environment and economic profitability "- EDF sources. In view of the "Getting out of nuclear" affair, one can more than doubt ... (more information : http://www.sortirdunucleaire.org/index. ... page=index) When in Iter, the project to recreate a mini-sun 300km from my home, let me be afraid .

France suffers from the nuclear-energy lobby and is probably the most misinformed country on this point. From there, I am and will remain deeply anti-"stuff that consumes electricity when other solutions exist". My remarks concerned the French situation and are not necessarily transferable everywhere, in your country for example. In addition, it remains only my opinion ...
(I think we're off topic here, right?).

[Other]

Hello
We are not off topic (Heat pump)
It is preferable to use a geothermal thermo pump than any electric .. at least 50% savings, and in summer the air conditioning provides all domestic hot water and more, therefore air conditioning, for me and considered free, since you have to make hot water.
Now ask yourself the question for a country of 65 millons of consumers how currently arrive to provide electricity
everybody ? the nuclear solution and probably at the present time, as much as possible to have such a flow, solar or wind it may just help, but I doubt that it will be enough.
THERE is not only home consumption, there is the whole steel industry, aluminum smelter ect .. which need electricity.

in the summer we have a surplus of electricity which is sold in the USA that brings billions to the government. water has to flow in one way or another .. (blue gold)
When I express myself it's always Quebec, Canada is another world, it's 4000km away!
It is only in Quebec that all the electricity is made with water, in the rest of Canada he builds nuclear power plants and they still have coal power plants, (Anoquer)
They are far from meeting the kyoto protocol, Quebec alone would get there easily.
georgraphically, not all regions are privileged to have abundant lakes and water,
this is why we cannot make comparisons, the needs are different and the availability too.
As we are on a forum French speaking it reaches several countries, it is certain that if we talk to people in Corsica about house insulation they will smile, but if we talk about insulation to those who live in the Vosges or Alsace it is different.
What you have to learn about heating and insulating houses is the Nordic countries which have experience.



Andre

[Philippe Schutt]

Until recently, it was only with electric heating that homes were insulated. We have had oil or gas heating for cheap for years, so cheap that it was not worth the trouble to insulate, or even to put double glazing. Even in Alsace-Lorraine. For example, for my old house of 150m² I needed 4000 liters of fuel per year. The estimate for changing the windows, 8000 euros. To insulate the walls and the roof, 14 euros. expected savings: 000 liters at 2000 euros. So it takes 0,7 years to recover the investment. The return on investment of a heat pump is much shorter, often less than 15 years. For me, it is the most profitable heating investment at the moment ... except to have it free by the local atomic power station;)

[laurent73]

Hello everybody

To make it economical (and even if I am currently in an apartment), do you have reliable tips (websites etc.) on the insulation of houses in Nordic countries?

This is to compare with what ASDER does on Chambé ...

On Bébertville, it's not that it's so cold in winter (three months without going through zero in the morning, it's not Canada), but if you can pollute less by consuming less ...

It's like the bike that I take as much as possible to go to work (20 km round trip), that's where I do the most for pollution!

a + and thank you again for these great discussions
Laurent