Info Thermodynamie heat pump

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anti-atom
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Info Thermodynamie heat pump




by anti-atom » 02/07/06, 16:09

Hello,
I am about to change the heating mode.
Currently at Fuel, I recently became acquainted with thermodynamics.
I had the visit of a commercial who has of course boasted the merits of this technology.
I have read a few lines on this subject, but I can not give myself a precise opinion.
Can you enlighten me?
Thank you in advance
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by Christophe » 02/07/06, 16:25

I think you want to talk about geothermal energy?

Attention with geothermics without knowledge we can easily sell very poor equipment ... (style air-air pump where it freezes!)

Here is a fairly complete topic on the subject Geothermal heat pump https://www.econologie.com/forums/geothermie ... vt186.html

Otherwise there is always the site of Ademe: www.ademe.fr
Last edited by Christophe the 25 / 01 / 09, 10: 19, 1 edited once.
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by anti-atom » 02/07/06, 18:14

For me, geothermal energy is linked to the ground.
In my case what I am offered is a kind of improved heat pump.
I enclose a prospectus of the product.
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by Christophe » 02/07/06, 18:48

It is a beast Air heat pump (not even reversible apparently to make hot ??) which we must be wary.

Below 5 ° C is a disaster in terms of yields .... so when I read guaranteed heating up to -15 ° C it is at the limit of misleading advertising because the COP may fall below 1 (in other words at low temperature a convector beast has a better performance) ...

It all depends on your geographical location.
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by anti-atom » 02/07/06, 20:15

If if it is primarily his first role to heat, incidentally it makes summer air.
I live in Brittany between Rennes and St Malo.
I enclose the back of the 1er document with all the technical standards of the compressor and the indoor console.
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by Philippe Schutt » 02/07/06, 20:40

Yes, the gases used make it possible to go down very low in t °, but it is the outside air which can make a layer of gel on the external exchanger, and there your performance becomes horrible. That said, in Brittany it should not happen often.
It seems to me that there are advertised 4,5 COPs in the air. this notion of COP is treacherous, the figure changes with the external t °. we should know the cop at 15 ° and at 3 °. Below, risk of frost.
in air-water we see cop + high and without risk of frost, but everyone does not have a water table underfoot.
water-water, even better if you have a heated floor.
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by anti-atom » 02/07/06, 21:51

Morality, does it seem to you to be a good system or not?
A priori the annual heating bill with this system amounts to around 300euros annual, for a surface of 130m2 to heat, 20 °, which would correspond to the power consumption of the compressor ...
For now I am closer to 1000 euros with fuel, without having a temperature exceeding 18 °, it's still attractive ...
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by I Citro » 02/07/06, 23:09

8) Yes it is attractive provided you take powerful equipment, ie a great brand to have the following characteristics:
COP greater than 3.6 (cops of 4.5 exist => 1000 watt consumed = 4500 watt delivered)
"ecological" gas R 410
silence of the indoor unit less than 29db
"Inverter" operation = soft start and partial load operation.
The most powerful materials I found are Toshiba brand. This brand is not very strong to sell, but innovates a lot. Other brands are waiting for Toshiba's patents to enter the public domain for commercialization.
The technology "inverter" has been patented 25 years ago by toshiba and is massively distributed since 5 years by everyone who presents it as a novelty ...
Today we start to find this technology (inverter) less than 600 € TTC (Chinese hardware). A quick calculation can be seen that this extra, compared to material "all or nothing, not inverter" less than 200 € TTC is amortized in 2ansans barely.
There are pipes with quick couplings that are very easy to install. But most installations are already preloaded and can be commissioned by an individual without specific tools.

As far as I'm concerned, I want to mount a duct unit plus a split in order to manage 2 zones.
My problem is to be able to acquire, as an individual, a branded installation at its TRUE PRICE (the professional purchase price is 2 at 2.5 times the price of Chinese material). But if I can not I will fall back on Chinese.

Lastly, my current heating is city gas. There is no doubt that my heating costs will fall by at least half.
I expect 1000 € gas for 2006 and I estimate 500 € by heating with an inverter, some have calculated 300 € with their simulation software.
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by Christophe » 02/07/06, 23:14

antiatome wrote:Morality, does it seem to you to be a good system or not?
A priori the annual heating bill with this system amounts to around 300euros annual, for a surface of 130m2 to heat, 20 °, which would correspond to the power consumption of the compressor ...


I bet these calculations are those provided by your "commercial" ... so done with the maximum COP ... short in ideal conditions that have nothing to do with reality (it's a bit like the conso of given car at steady speed that are never reached in real life!)
In short, it's beautiful to dream ...

antiatome wrote:For now I am closer to 1000 euros with fuel, without having a temperature exceeding 18 °, it's still attractive ...


I'm not sure that the air-to-air solution is ideal for Brittany (we see especially in the south!) Because even if it does not freeze it really needs the COP is interesting at the average T ° of the period of heating ... I lived in South Brittany and some morning are well "caillants" anyway ...

Get specific information from the ADEME in your area or see you in the forum www.chaleurterre.com there are specialists and users.
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by Other » 02/07/06, 23:20

Hello antiatome

It depends on what you are looking for, comfort, economy in the short or long term.
most of the thermo pumps sold in America are air / air
Easy to install and relatively low cost
Good for air conditioning l, been good for heating l, autumn and spring, and no one for winter the best arrives at a little something at -5 but there is a defrost cycle for the outdoor radiator, what he does not say is that the outdoor radiator suffers the moss pollen in the spring and the leaves of the trees in the autumn, it is sometimes as noisy for the neighborhood, it necesitte cleanings, the life time 15 has 20 years for good ..
Geothermal is better it can work year-round, but the installation costs expensive you have to see the performance spread on 10ans to feel a saving,
I am installing geothermal water / air this is a 15 years old and i live in a rather cold climate ..
First thing to consider or improve is the insulation of the house, a house to heat only the thermo pump must have a super insulation as the houses all electric
When cop with colds it falls to 1,5 and in the best it approaches 3, it is not necessary to reverberate in color the good cop have reached them when one seeks to heat an apartment which had descended to 12c or 15 c, the performance They are texcellent, but in real life they are heated to 23c or 25 c and the efficiency starts to drop, so that the outside air can be at 5c and less, nothing to improve the efficiency.
On a water heat pump the best performance I had when I heated water that was 8c returned to 45c performance
collapses. it's like the cars there are the numbers of the manufacturer and the figures of the real life ...
The compressor pulls 26 amperes under 220volts single phase
with the acessoirs pump and fan it pulls around 30 amperes, to heat a house of 1000 square feet even when it is -20 at these temperatures the system is 30% of time in operation, as I repeat it there is thick insulation in the house ...

Andre
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