Attention site testers

[Ezekiel_AREVA]

Dear sirs,

Beware of the test equipment that you use, by browsing the various topics, I fall naked by reading reports written according to results given by equipment not appropriate to the measured load.

I work for Areva T&D, and I am in charge of the energy studies which are necessary for the study of the loads and the quality of energy which is distributed in the substations and substations. Taking electrical measurements and analyzing power is part of my job.

So, let's get to the facts:

Measuring devices are converters that convert analog information into user-understandable digital values ​​via electronic components or analog methods. They are not perfect, which means they have errors:
Without going into more detail, a device given to 1% on a 600V caliber presents a inaccuracy of 6V over its entire measuring range, just use several different devices to make it very quickly very quickly .

This means that taking this gauge to measure a voltage of 12Volts is absolutely ridiculous and does not allow any real measurement. it is therefore necessary to change the device, or caliber, which does not seem to be mastered here (hence my intervention).

All devices of all types for all possible measures are subject to this problem, more or less large scale.

There are methods and means to carry out energy studies that must be adapted to the measurement, the type of load, the current consumed (a diode lamp, a fan and a radiator do not consume at all electricity in the same way!).

I am ready to offer my help and expertise to the people in charge of the tests here or elsewhere, but by grace, pay attention to your measurements, and the conclusions they lead to!

Adaptation, reflextion and awareness of the error engendered by measurement must be the watchwords when it comes to questioning information in these areas.

Hoping not to shock the testers, and hoping to be able to provide help rather than a head on a block,

I beg you to believe....

cordially

Eric LEONARD
Areva T&D

ericasw28@hotmail.com

[Christophe]

Ok and what do you propose as alternatives accessible to the general public?

An EdF counter? I think you know better than I how to "fuck" older generation ...

I "like" your idea about the fact that we cannot determine a caliber ...

[Ezekiel_AREVA]

Let's say that when we want to question tests done by professional teams, we can not reasonably do it with amateur equipment.
you can find something to test properly provided you invest near 1200 €.
This is not mainstream, but there is no alternative, a precise measure is expensive. (cf rental rates for test equipment such as Leasametric, etc., laboratories such as LCIE, etc.).

An EDF meter measures the Active power consumed, so will measure the active 4W and not the apparent 17W. it is not the same tariff regime.

[Capt_Maloche]

Yes, a test campaign begins by quantifying the precision of the measures envisaged, since the subject deserves a great precision, we are not at 5 see 10% meadows

Personally, I only use pro +/- equipment 2%, which is good enough for our demonstrations on this site

[Ezekiel_AREVA]

without indiscretion, what is this material?

[Capt_Maloche]

I do not have them under my elbow but from memory:

- Hot wire anemometer brand KIMO
- Chauvin Arnoud Thermocouple Differential Thermometer
- Multimeter and amperometric clamp Chauvin Arnoud
- Basic sound level meter without measurement by octave band (damn the mark ...)

and other social materials available to satisfy my insatiable needs for knowledge

I do not work in chemistry or precision electronics

But apart from that, it seems that you're working at AREVA, and I have a question to ask:

have you heard about Z-Pinch?

[Ezekiel_AREVA]

I work for Areva T&D, for Transmission and Distribution, wholesale, in the routing of energy from the power plant to the user, the management of the electrical network, the commissioning of dedicated telecom and IT equipment and the resolution of breakdowns.

I do not have any information on Z-Pinch, which is a process that must be implemented by Framatome or Areva NC (Nuclear Cycle). But in view of the security policy we have here, I think that even working on it, I would not have the right to say more. it makes me the same lack when I ask questions to a friend who works at DCN propuslion.

For devices that work well and can be used in quite a few tests on high THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) loads, Fluke 120 series are machines to consider. I had the opportunity to test comparatively several amperometric clamps a few months ago, and the small Universal Technic clamps were perfectly suited to very small powers.

[Christophe]

1) Framatome and Areva would be on the Z-Pinch ... if it's true it's a hell of a joke for the ITER project ...

2) As far as flukes are concerned, they are famous products.
But what do you think of these series: http://www.velleman.be/fr/en/product/list/?id=344545

It's the same type of device but a little more affordable for the general public ...

3) If not to return a little to your idea that our measures are
"pipotés":

1) the pm231 takes into account the cos phi (approximately but still)

2) pkoi the measurements agree on the fluorescent bulbs which also outpasses the current while they almost never coincide on leds 220 V?

[Ezekiel_AREVA]

The transmission and distribution of energy transmits and distributes energy. routes, regulates, modifies the topology, takes information, but does not take care of searches made in generation. Areva is a very large multinational company, the skills are multiple and dispatched according to the positions. Here in these offices, we do not come into play with the technologies that are put in place at La Défense.
Nevertheless, we know that both projects are funded. I do not have access to these numbers.

Regarding the Velleman, I have never used them, but without looking closer, they can allow more precise energy analysis and take into consideration D.

Cos phi? PF? Attention nuance, the power factor is not the cos phi.
the apparent power (S) is composed of P, Q and D,
active power (P) (current in phase and frequency with voltage)
the reactive power (Q) (phase shifted current of pi / 2 and in frequency with the voltage)
the deforming power (D) (frequency currents multiple of that of the voltage, of the variable phase position.)

And S = square root (P² + Q² + D²)

This distorting power is not taken into account by the majority of devices and requires expensive equipment to be measured with precision. And on rectifier type loads (pc, diode lamps, all devices using a direct voltage qqpart), dimmers (living room lamp dimmers, etc.), and many other electronic or electrotechnical loads that consume a particular current, precautions must be taken with the measures indicated by "cheap" devices.


Fluorescent lamps use a mode of operation different from leds (I take the example of neon):
initially, a coil charges a magnetic circuit through a starter placed in parallel with the tube. with the heating caused by the passage of current in the starter, it opens (it can be modeled by a switch), and creates a very high voltage at the terminals of the tube (of the order of ten kilovolts). This voltage is greater than the avalanche voltage (threshold from which a dielectric becomes conductive because of the excessive voltage at its terminals), the gas ionizes and rises in temperature. Its resistance then becomes weaker and the current is established "roughly" as in a resistance.
"roughly speaking, because other phenomena appear which generate this harmonic pollution.

A diode lamp is a rectifier. I look at mine tonight to reconfirm, but his job is to straighten the voltage and charge a capacitor. In steady state, the current is absorbed only to recharge this capacitor, which will be represented on the oscilloscope by current peaks at the peak voltage peaks. It is a strongly harmonic absorption, which remains compensable by a high pass filter (LC, whose goal will be not to let the 50Hz pass, but the higher frequencies.). We can make one, I'm going to work on it if I have two minutes this weekend.

There are therefore two different technologies for two different currents absorbed, which require different measuring means.

Now, why are these filters not original? Very simple, an LC filter is a capacitor (chemical dielectric) and a coil (copper + ferrite), so space and a cost not necessarily justified commercially on bulbs 4 or 5 W to 10 or 15 €.

I got wind of a whole district lit by power LEDs, the installation consumed a hundred watts for several streets. The differences with sodium or mercury vapor lamps are therefore there.

[lolokiapp]

Your knowledge interests me, if I understood correctly EDF invoices us that the active power? So he carries the reactive and the deformante for free?

The power of the subscription is in VA, so it's apparent power this time?

I heard that low-consumption lamps were very deforming in intensity and therefore consumed a lot of deforming power. If it is true in what proportion compared to the active power?

Thank you