Economic crises, sacrificed youth and poverty

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
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sen-no-sen
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by sen-no-sen » 16/11/11, 11:54

Philippe Schutt wrote:
On the contrary, I find that the responsibility of investors is very real, because at the top, it is certain of them who have allowed the emergence of globalism ... the jackpot being at hand.
Globalism has made it possible to improve the lives of millions of people, let's not be selfish.


It's a very short-term vision!
Improving people's lives is relative and will benefit a few generations at most.
The current mode of development leads to an environmental deterioration which, in the short term risks to involve modifications on the planetary scale causing the disappearance of many biotopes and could even lead to our own extinction.


* Do not confuse globalism and globalization, the first being a doctrine, the second a consequence of international trade.
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by Ahmed » 16/11/11, 20:37

To my answer:
And when the main mission of politics is to convince citizens to align themselves with economic "constraints"?
Philippe Schutt replica:
As far as we are concerned, this was precisely not the case. Hence the disappointing tomorrows.


The distribution of income from activity in a company is a function of the balance of power between the various components of it.
Industrial society is part of a huge imbalance at the expense of the working class. If this imbalance has diminished, it is not thanks to the kindness of souls of the economic leaders, nor to the will of the political leaders, it is the result of social struggles.
It was only long after the merits of a less scandalous distribution were recognized as legitimate, that the leaders realized that they had an objective interest in raising the standard of living of workers / employees: because from the enormous production potential reached by the machinery, it became necessary to expand the market by recruiting new customers / consumers.
To continue to value capital, it was necessary to let go of the ballast and make concessions to the class disliked *.
Fordism and Keynesianism sum up this double evolution simultaneously on both economic and political levels.

The current crisis is a new stage resulting from the difficulty for the industry to generate recovery.

At first (around 1970), European industry sought to increase its productivity, causing unemployment and falling industrial margins **; there remained only the solution to relocate; in China, low wages and modern techniques combine to restore profitability for a time, but the same causes having the same effects this profitability in turn drops ***.
As water follows the steepest slope, money finds its (temporary) salvation in finance, which explains the different speculative bubbles, then its search for new more profitable combinations, such as the short-circuiting of State financial institutions for the benefit of private institutions, which allows it to ransom the states of the North, as it did with those of the South: in addition to earning interest, will come that provided by the internal privatization plans of the states.

It is therefore not a supposed "laxity" of governments which explains the present situation!


* Also played the rivalry with the USSR. Today, no need to be shy, there is no longer a competing alternative!
** this last general reasoning does not apply to firms in a monopoly or cartel situation.
*** The industry comes up against ecological limits much less, as mentioned Sen-no-sen than profitability.
Note: Ford was very right, Keynes frankly conservative.
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by Philippe Schutt » 16/11/11, 21:44

sen-no-sen wrote:Improving people's lives is relative and will benefit a few generations at most.
The current mode of development leads to an environmental deterioration which, in the short term risks bringing about modifications on the planetary scale causing the disappearance of many biotopes and could even lead to our own extinction ...

At a minimum, a high increase in natural resources, leading to a reduction in our standard of living. I am convinced that we will be checking out very soon, if it has not already started. In fact yes, if only by the health effects of pollution.
On the other hand, with regard to the entirely relative improvement, we can compare with the past periods.
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by Philippe Schutt » 16/11/11, 22:59

Ahmed wrote:The distribution of income from activity in a company is a function of the balance of power between the various components of it.
Is this still the case? it does not seem to me or it takes perspective to see it ...

Ahmed wrote:The current crisis is a new stage resulting from the difficulty for the industry to generate recovery.
At first (around 1970), European industry sought to increase its productivity, causing unemployment and falling industrial margins **; there remained only the solution to relocate; in China, low wages and modern techniques combine to restore profitability for a time, but the same causes having the same effects this profitability in turn drops ***.
From a global point of view it can be interpreted thus, but this would suggest that the profits have increased. However, companies were fighting for their survival. I lived this in the furniture, the French companies were laminated by the Italians. Those who survived had relocated to Asia. It's been 40 years that we deindustrialize the country, and the industrialists have lost just as much as the employees if not more. Globalization has brought a big gain in purchasing power thanks to the very favorable term of trade, to the detriment of industry.

Ahmed wrote:As water follows the steepest slope, money finds its (temporary) salvation in finance, which explains the different speculative bubbles,
ah? for me the bubbles are explained by the huge difference between the money supply and real wealth, due to the indebtedness of the states.

Ahmed wrote:then his search for new, more profitable combinations, such as the short-circuiting of state financial institutions for the benefit of private institutions, which allows him to ransom the northern states
a cause and effect link that is not obvious to me.

Ahmed wrote:It is therefore not a supposed "laxity" of governments which explains the present situation!
oh if, at least with regard to the debt crisis, it is the fable of the cicada and the ant, some countries have managed their finances well while others have soared.
For unemployment, on the other hand, it is endemic to the liberal system, I seem to remember that this has been demonstrated. Marx?
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by sen-no-sen » 17/11/11, 11:42

Ahmed wrote:

As water follows the steepest slope, money finds its (temporary) salvation in finance, which explains the different speculative bubbles, then its search for new more profitable combinations, such as the short-circuiting of State financial institutions for the benefit of private institutions, which allows it to ransom the states of the North, as it did with those of the South: in addition to earning interest, will come that provided by the internal privatization plans of the states.

It is therefore not a supposed "laxity" of governments which explains the present situation!


Exactly, it is the advent of disaster capitalism!
All the means are now good to guarantee remuneration up to the planetary "holdup".

Philippe Schutt wrote:

At a minimum, a high increase in natural resources, leading to a reduction in our standard of living. I am convinced that we will be checking out very soon, if it has not already started. In fact yes, if only by the health effects of pollution.


The problem is that Mother Nature does not credit!
For the rest (pollution, health) we manage our self-destruction very well.


On the other hand, with regard to the entirely relative improvement, we can compare with the past periods.


If we compare this improvement with the History of humanity (about 150000 years ago), it is no exaggeration to speak of relative comfort, as the generations who have benefited from it represent a simple strand in history.
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by Ahmed » 17/11/11, 20:22

To my sentence: "The distribution of the products of the activity in a company is a function of the balance of power between the various components of this one.", You answer:
Is this still the case? it does not seem to me or it takes perspective to see it ...

The decline of the working masses, their fragmentation, like those of the employees, the union and political demobilization has reduced the weight of these social categories to very little; Faced with it, the ruling class, although crossed by cleavages, finds itself united and aware of it for the defense of its interests.
The current trend, which shows an ever-widening income disparity never seen before, clearly shows which way the balance of power is leaning.

Further, you note:
From a global point of view it can be interpreted thus, but this would suggest that the profits have increased. However, companies were fighting for their survival. I lived this in the furniture, the French companies were laminated by the Italians. Those who survived had relocated to Asia. We have been deindustrializing the country for 40 years, and the industrialists have lost just as much as the employees if not more.

Isn't that what I wrote? The benefits vanished as the displays progressed.

Regarding financial bubbles, I admit to ignoring in detail the functioning of these masses of money.
However, overall, within financial institutions there are masses of capital which "seek" (if one can say so!) To invest where there can be added value. Any decision being "performative", ie to say that it influences reality, is created a psychological movement which self-amplifies until brutal deflation.
The reason is that the more an investment makes it possible to hope for a substantial gain, the more it is risky: it is therefore indeed the lack of possibility of investments that are both secure and sufficiently remunerative that leads to fault.

I wrote: "... the bypassing of state financial institutions for the benefit of private institutions, which allows it to ransom the northern states ..."
and you answer:
A cause and effect link that is not obvious to me.

I was just alluding to the impossibility for each European state to issue money, but to have to finance its debt through the use of private financial institutions.
The consequences are obviously an increase in credit, but also the impossibility of varying the price of its currency in order to maintain its competitiveness within partners of unequal forces.

Further on, you talk about the fable of "The cicada and the ant"; an illustration is not a reasoning ...

At one point, you talk to Sen-no-sen on the positive aspects of liberalism.
Beyond the simple evidence on a certain number of points, what seems important to me is that each net gain for a certain population finds its correspondence in very negative aspects in another social, national, geographic, environmental sphere. .
Thus, let us take as an example what we discussed above, the compromise which allowed the rise of the middle class in France after the Second World War resulted, in particular, in greater precariousness in Africa.
Even if the phenomenon is not as intuitively perceptible as the principle of communicating vessels, extractivism was at the base of the period of the "thirty glorious years".
This is the unfortunate principle of liberalism / capitalism: I had not mentioned the slave-cane relationship by chance.
For there to be value creation, someone must be wronged: the slaves or the Chinese workers in their workers' convicts.
French workers / employees are no longer "profitable" when they are more or less correctly paid ...
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by Philippe Schutt » 17/11/11, 20:58

I have the impression that you consider the mafia behaviors of a few people mixing politics, business, trading in influence etc ... for a generality, and as being the very essence of the system.
We probably don't live on the same planet.
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by Ahmed » 17/11/11, 21:32

Adam Smith the first theorist of economic liberalism, explained at length in his work "Research on the nature and the causes of the wealth of nations" that the superiority of this system resided in the fact that the collective good resulted from the sum of individual egoisms, and not from an altruistic effort.
Of course, his thinking is not limited to that, but, by the means of mechanisms, he foresaw that, (at least in theory!), Everything could be balanced in a rather harmonious way, and especially without requiring a "new man. ", as will be the case in the USSR.
So I have at least one ally on the opposing side! : Lol:

I do not deny mafia behavior, etc ... but consider that an analysis which would be limited to moral considerations would be wrong.
Within the economy, we all act (with more or less impact) in various ways towards the same predetermined purpose, since it does not depend on our individuality (driving backwards can always be imagined , but will be heavily sanctioned).
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by Christophe » 23/06/14, 15:36

A study on purchasing power shows how France has sacrificed the young generations: http://www.delitdimages.org/comment-fra ... -jeunesse/

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by Did67 » 23/06/14, 17:23

It is not clear what year the data is from.

We compare people born in 1975 (who are therefore almost 40 years old today! AND these would be the "young") to those born in 1925 (who are 90 years old) ???

Or is it in 2000? AND since, especially in Germany, the gaps have widened phenomenally, following the Hartz laws4 - read: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9formes_Hartz

[Today, if you go to Berlin, you will be surprised to see people putting empty bottles on the curb. Explanation: Germany has opted for cleaning glass bottles (rather than breaking them to rectify the glass - which is silica which is not expensive and especially energy!), Therefore with a deposit; people "in a hurry" therefore put down the returnable bottle and a whole informal sector has developed of "bottle collectors" who are paid with the deposit ... !!!

http://www.biere-berlin-et-rocknroll.co ... onsignees/
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