Hello
Christophe having mentioned the problem of the thermal buffer of great capacity on another post, I thought about it tonight (you'll tell me, he has that crazy ... that one) and I may have a solution , at least theoretical (I like the inventions)
That said large amount of water, also said great inertia but unfortunately difficult to raise the temperature of the buffer.
Imagine an isolated balloon contained in another balloon, itself isolated and contained in another etc ...
A thermal unit is obtained whose global heat capacity depends on the quantity and temperature of each reserve
If the central part is the hottest, the possible losses will occur to the external volumes, to the last, the least hot.
To warm everything up, solar panel heat pump or boiler, nothing more simple, the water circulates through a heat exchanger coil that goes from the inside to the outside
To draw the calories of the buffer it is the opposite, the cold water arrives first in the warmest volume, until the warmest
The above system has less heat capacity contained than in a single buffer 60 ° but the latter being difficult to heat and maintain at this temperature, there must be an advantage in terms of stability of the output temperature
What do you think ?
A+
Thermal buffer with constant heat
several remarks in bulk:
- an exchanger is a general 10 brass spiers, if you have to put 10 balloon, it will start to expensive (not counting the price of balloons)
- how do you manage the losses of the central ball? If you heat only the one, if the power is too important you will heat a reduced mass (the ball from the center), and if the loss of balloons to each other is too great, you lose your heat. ...
You can also consider heating all the balloons with a parallel circuit of 1er but powered in the other direction.
- I think it costs much less to use the stratification of a water tank (the upper part is the hottest)
- an exchanger is a general 10 brass spiers, if you have to put 10 balloon, it will start to expensive (not counting the price of balloons)
- how do you manage the losses of the central ball? If you heat only the one, if the power is too important you will heat a reduced mass (the ball from the center), and if the loss of balloons to each other is too great, you lose your heat. ...
You can also consider heating all the balloons with a parallel circuit of 1er but powered in the other direction.
- I think it costs much less to use the stratification of a water tank (the upper part is the hottest)
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There is an idea! These are 2 or 4 ball in series if you want no?
But in fact a classic balloon is not it already a little like that thermally (heart + hot than walls)?
How would heated (and especially maintained) different balloons at different T °? Except with a heating exclusively by the heart I do not see ...
But in fact a classic balloon is not it already a little like that thermally (heart + hot than walls)?
How would heated (and especially maintained) different balloons at different T °? Except with a heating exclusively by the heart I do not see ...
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Bonjour à tous
Indeed, there is the idea that the efficiency of the temperature exchange with the outside being all the worse as the difference in temperature is low. The consequence is that the hot volume (in the drawing) is lower than the cold volume, so it is necessary to provide a somewhat larger installation. But could not we get an approaching result by multiplying by 3 insulation thickness (for the lost place is not better .... )
A+
Indeed, there is the idea that the efficiency of the temperature exchange with the outside being all the worse as the difference in temperature is low. The consequence is that the hot volume (in the drawing) is lower than the cold volume, so it is necessary to provide a somewhat larger installation. But could not we get an approaching result by multiplying by 3 insulation thickness (for the lost place is not better .... )
A+
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Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.
[Eugène Ionesco]
http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
[Eugène Ionesco]
http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
Hello
The first idea of this type of balloon is to be able to maintain a volume of hot water in a big capacity
The interest of having a small capacity to 60 ° usable and to avoid the bacterial proliferation
The total capacity of the buffer amounts to a single volume at 40 ° C but it is sometimes insufficient
I mentioned buffer and not a hot water tank, so no electrical resistance
To heat the buffer, the coolant is circulated from the hottest reserve to the colder, unlike what is designed for reheating
The fluid is then entered at 60 ° and is recovered at the outlet at 20 °, ready to be heated. The Delta is important, it captures the calories of the heating circuit.
As Christophe says, this is the principle of balloons in series, type circulation double flow
For the proportions, it is obvious that the drawn volumes are not optimized (the drawing is only a representation of the principle, if you find it null improve it)
2 th step: when the central balloon is hot enough and we continue to heat, it is the balloon 40 ° which will become the complement to 60 °, that to 20 ° complement 40 ° etc ...
It is not a question of maintaining each reserve at the indicated temperature (for the example) but to have a progression of heat capacity by progression and not by slow rise of all the volume
A+
The first idea of this type of balloon is to be able to maintain a volume of hot water in a big capacity
The interest of having a small capacity to 60 ° usable and to avoid the bacterial proliferation
The total capacity of the buffer amounts to a single volume at 40 ° C but it is sometimes insufficient
I mentioned buffer and not a hot water tank, so no electrical resistance
To heat the buffer, the coolant is circulated from the hottest reserve to the colder, unlike what is designed for reheating
The fluid is then entered at 60 ° and is recovered at the outlet at 20 °, ready to be heated. The Delta is important, it captures the calories of the heating circuit.
As Christophe says, this is the principle of balloons in series, type circulation double flow
For the proportions, it is obvious that the drawn volumes are not optimized (the drawing is only a representation of the principle, if you find it null improve it)
2 th step: when the central balloon is hot enough and we continue to heat, it is the balloon 40 ° which will become the complement to 60 °, that to 20 ° complement 40 ° etc ...
It is not a question of maintaining each reserve at the indicated temperature (for the example) but to have a progression of heat capacity by progression and not by slow rise of all the volume
A+
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Ok would there be a second "similar" heating exchanger then?
Your idea involves having to isolate each sub balloon otherwise after a few hours with a simple sheet they will be almost at the same temperature.
It's conceivable but not easy, so see what you can gain from the extra cost. Considering 2 or 3 ball in series is therefore almost the same thermally except that the losses do not pass from one ball to another but for the previous reason 3 nested balloon today looks more and more like a false good idea. ..
In addition it is quite possible that hot water (useful) will tend to equate the temperature in 3 balloons. In other words: the hot water will heat the coldest balloon while it's the opposite that we want ...
Not easy as an idea
Your idea involves having to isolate each sub balloon otherwise after a few hours with a simple sheet they will be almost at the same temperature.
It's conceivable but not easy, so see what you can gain from the extra cost. Considering 2 or 3 ball in series is therefore almost the same thermally except that the losses do not pass from one ball to another but for the previous reason 3 nested balloon today looks more and more like a false good idea. ..
In addition it is quite possible that hot water (useful) will tend to equate the temperature in 3 balloons. In other words: the hot water will heat the coldest balloon while it's the opposite that we want ...
Not easy as an idea
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Do a image search or an text search - Netiquette of forum
Hi Looping.
The thermal capacity of your system does not depend on the temperature distribution in your system.
I have the impression that you are confusing thermal capacity and stored thermal energy.
For your system to work, it is imperative to heat the center with external input.
For thermal insulation, you must:
- On the one hand layers of insulation, the best being a hyper rarefied atmosphere
- mirrors that reflect the heat radiation from the hot center to ... the hot center ...
In this perspective, your idea multilayer seems possible, of course.
Good cogitation
@+
The thermal capacity of your system does not depend on the temperature distribution in your system.
I have the impression that you are confusing thermal capacity and stored thermal energy.
For your system to work, it is imperative to heat the center with external input.
For thermal insulation, you must:
- On the one hand layers of insulation, the best being a hyper rarefied atmosphere
- mirrors that reflect the heat radiation from the hot center to ... the hot center ...
In this perspective, your idea multilayer seems possible, of course.
Good cogitation
@+
0 x
Hello
Reply to Christophe
yes the same as for calorie removal but with reverse circulation
yes it is written in my 1er message, otherwise it is obvious that it has no interest
The insulation is used to keep a temperature graduation of each balloon
I never said that my idea was good
The advantage of having the 3 balloons in one is only to limit losses to the outside, especially for the hottest balloon, but in practice it would amount to housing the balloons in one room, the most warm in the center and the others around
OK to replace heat capacity by qty of energy stored as heat in the water
The energy stored in a single flask of 3001 at 40 ° is the same as in 3 flask of 100l each, the first at 20 °, the second at 40 ° and the 3eme at 60 °
By cons, in use, the exploitable temperature is not the same, this is the essential point of my demonstration (not very convincing apparently)
A+
Reply to Christophe
Ok would there be a second "similar" heating exchanger then?
yes the same as for calorie removal but with reverse circulation
Your idea involves having to isolate each sub balloon otherwise after a few hours with a simple sheet they will be almost at the same temperature.
yes it is written in my 1er message, otherwise it is obvious that it has no interest
The insulation is used to keep a temperature graduation of each balloon
3 nested balloon cele looks more and more like a false good idea ...
I never said that my idea was good
The advantage of having the 3 balloons in one is only to limit losses to the outside, especially for the hottest balloon, but in practice it would amount to housing the balloons in one room, the most warm in the center and the others around
I have the impression that you are confusing thermal capacity and stored thermal energy
OK to replace heat capacity by qty of energy stored as heat in the water
The energy stored in a single flask of 3001 at 40 ° is the same as in 3 flask of 100l each, the first at 20 °, the second at 40 ° and the 3eme at 60 °
By cons, in use, the exploitable temperature is not the same, this is the essential point of my demonstration (not very convincing apparently)
A+
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loop wrote:By cons, in use, the exploitable temperature is not the same, this is the essential point of my demonstration (not very convincing apparently)
Absolutely ... unless you leave cold water at 1 or 2 ° C or I think the difference will be very small ...
But the dimensioning of the heat exchanger will be a little madness because it will be necessary to ensure that the ECS that comes out of an exchange N is colder than the exchanger N + 1 ...
In addition I tested for one month the heating of ECS via a solar heat exchanger (see diagram DEOM version one) and it works not well ... (very hot in the beginning then cold) ...
In order for this to work, a hydrostatic exchanger with a large exchange surface is required (unit heater style). It is obviously feasible in your case but it will increase the cost ...
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Hello
After some research here is a product that illustrates the 2 balloon solution in 1
The central balloon is equipped with a resistance for the ECS
The outer balloon is a buffer for heating
It exists with 1 or 2 exchangers
On the other hand, when the resistance is triggered to top up the DHW, I do not know what prevents calories from migrating to the outside water of the heating circuit that does not need it
Apper-solar website
A+
After some research here is a product that illustrates the 2 balloon solution in 1
The central balloon is equipped with a resistance for the ECS
The outer balloon is a buffer for heating
It exists with 1 or 2 exchangers
On the other hand, when the resistance is triggered to top up the DHW, I do not know what prevents calories from migrating to the outside water of the heating circuit that does not need it
Apper-solar website
A+
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