Hi,
We would need your experiences and tips ...
We made heating renovations to our house (in hydraulic pellet stove), but we have moved from a house cool, even cold, sauna!
We believe that the installation is oversized (very hot inside, cold outside, stop / frequent starting of the boiler).
Also, what are the remedies?
Thanks in advance!
PS: we only knew nothing heating and did not know he was advised to make a heat balance ... Too bad! We already biting fingers !!!
What recourse boiler oversizing?
-
mariepoussin
- I understand econologic
- posts: 63
- Registration: 29/08/11, 22:12
You have how many sauna T ?? for what means T out on a date?
what type of home, area, region, isolated from how thick.
Since it has not been cold recently (10 ° C mean outside ??? where are you?), And therefore you do not need even the 1 / 3 of the maximum power required of the boiler by -18 ° C (average in 1956 in early February), max possible and not seen since. 10 ° C average daily outside, ie 10 ° C difference compared to 38 ° C difference by -18 ° C which with a boiler power required, requires less than 1 / 3 the maximum power of the boiler in makes 10 / 38 = 1 / 3,8 = 26% of the max of the boiler.
So you're a victim of your installer, who do not inform the problem that modern pellet boilers and wood, only operate between 1 and 1 / 3 their max powerAnd very difficult to below, to have a good performance and not see their steel eaten by cold condensation.
He should inform you and ask a less powerful boiler with 1 / 3 power min adapted to the usual mild winters our warming world, compared to the great cold of 1954 1956 and we do not see each other again soon !!
.
Sometimes a possible solution is to reduce the power of the boiler (limited), see for example econology for ÖkoFEN, full of information about your problem.
So you like me once for workmanship, to act forcefully, by starting your legal guarantee comprehensive insurance for your home to find the facts (even faster bailiff) by an adjuster, after a registered letter to your installer, requiring him to remedy.Plus it's excessive, easy to find, the more you can earn.
I hope you do not have any paid at least 5% in less than perfect completion, which can motivate to act, whether it has jurisdiction.
Otherwise you have ask him to solve, facing insurance expert, or if he refuses to face justice expert or to be condemned for not respecting its obligations proas I did against an architect, who had badly supervised the work, with his insurance who paid.
Have you received the good work properly or not, with reservations or not ..
Essential, because the insurance of the decennial pros leave only after reception.
Verify that it has valid insurance, otherwise it will pay from his pocket all court costs.
When we do work, we must require and verify the existence and validity of the insurance year warranty and liability of the company, watching carefully the nature of guaranteed work.
If the company already has to ask his insurance to cover it, its premiums increase in penalties.
Otherwise it is the completion guarantee you is now on a two-year, due to take quick action in justice, in less than 6 months if the pro refuses.
This error seems common, see all posts on ÖkoFEN, varied, 160 400 pages pages !!
Settings help to reduce the problem.
It may be that if you have an outside sensor, the settings for the power function of the T external probe are bad ???
But 1 / 3 mini power is very inconvenient logically by mild winter with continuous operation of the boiler !!
There must be plenty of settings as Okofen, secretly reserved for pros!
https://www.econologie.com/forums/suivi-du-t ... t6424.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post218041.html#218041
https://www.econologie.com/forums/reglage-co ... 10159.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ralenti-de ... 3-100.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/reduction- ... 10287.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/baisse-de- ... t9957.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/okofen-pel ... t6540.html
but your professional installer, was even more to advise you, to explain, to propose to you to make this thermal assessment, even to do it simply a basic estimate, and it is a mistake on his part legally, to fit you a boiler adapted and not overpowered . One to be the pro, it's him, and not you, or it's the world upside down, we can not know everything.
It has a duty to advise and responsible.
The exact text of the order of written work is essential.
Since the scams in the building and heating are very very common, you have to be very wary.
Ignorant and confident people are fair game for the pros crook !!
Minimum to spend their full and sometimes unnecessarily for equipment that does not work.
what type of home, area, region, isolated from how thick.
Since it has not been cold recently (10 ° C mean outside ??? where are you?), And therefore you do not need even the 1 / 3 of the maximum power required of the boiler by -18 ° C (average in 1956 in early February), max possible and not seen since. 10 ° C average daily outside, ie 10 ° C difference compared to 38 ° C difference by -18 ° C which with a boiler power required, requires less than 1 / 3 the maximum power of the boiler in makes 10 / 38 = 1 / 3,8 = 26% of the max of the boiler.
So you're a victim of your installer, who do not inform the problem that modern pellet boilers and wood, only operate between 1 and 1 / 3 their max powerAnd very difficult to below, to have a good performance and not see their steel eaten by cold condensation.
He should inform you and ask a less powerful boiler with 1 / 3 power min adapted to the usual mild winters our warming world, compared to the great cold of 1954 1956 and we do not see each other again soon !!
.
Sometimes a possible solution is to reduce the power of the boiler (limited), see for example econology for ÖkoFEN, full of information about your problem.
So you like me once for workmanship, to act forcefully, by starting your legal guarantee comprehensive insurance for your home to find the facts (even faster bailiff) by an adjuster, after a registered letter to your installer, requiring him to remedy.Plus it's excessive, easy to find, the more you can earn.
I hope you do not have any paid at least 5% in less than perfect completion, which can motivate to act, whether it has jurisdiction.
Otherwise you have ask him to solve, facing insurance expert, or if he refuses to face justice expert or to be condemned for not respecting its obligations proas I did against an architect, who had badly supervised the work, with his insurance who paid.
Have you received the good work properly or not, with reservations or not ..
Essential, because the insurance of the decennial pros leave only after reception.
Verify that it has valid insurance, otherwise it will pay from his pocket all court costs.
When we do work, we must require and verify the existence and validity of the insurance year warranty and liability of the company, watching carefully the nature of guaranteed work.
If the company already has to ask his insurance to cover it, its premiums increase in penalties.
Otherwise it is the completion guarantee you is now on a two-year, due to take quick action in justice, in less than 6 months if the pro refuses.
This error seems common, see all posts on ÖkoFEN, varied, 160 400 pages pages !!
Settings help to reduce the problem.
It may be that if you have an outside sensor, the settings for the power function of the T external probe are bad ???
But 1 / 3 mini power is very inconvenient logically by mild winter with continuous operation of the boiler !!
There must be plenty of settings as Okofen, secretly reserved for pros!
https://www.econologie.com/forums/suivi-du-t ... t6424.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post218041.html#218041
https://www.econologie.com/forums/reglage-co ... 10159.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ralenti-de ... 3-100.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/reduction- ... 10287.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/baisse-de- ... t9957.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/okofen-pel ... t6540.html
PS: we only knew nothing heating and did not know he was advised to make a heat balance ... Too bad! We already biting fingers !!!
but your professional installer, was even more to advise you, to explain, to propose to you to make this thermal assessment, even to do it simply a basic estimate, and it is a mistake on his part legally, to fit you a boiler adapted and not overpowered . One to be the pro, it's him, and not you, or it's the world upside down, we can not know everything.
It has a duty to advise and responsible.
The exact text of the order of written work is essential.
Since the scams in the building and heating are very very common, you have to be very wary.
Ignorant and confident people are fair game for the pros crook !!
Minimum to spend their full and sometimes unnecessarily for equipment that does not work.
0 x
-
roy1361
- x 17
Re: What recourse boiler oversizing
mariepoussin wrote:We made heating renovations to our house (in hydraulic pellet stove), but we have moved from a house cool, even cold, sauna!
We believe that the installation is oversized (very hot inside, cold outside, stop / frequent starting of the boiler).
Hello,
To operate a pellet heating continuously and without tank (either a boiler or stove hydro), it is actually the power is calculated as accurately.
I guess your system therefore has no buffer tank, but she works with an outdoor temperature sensor and a 3 way valve, so a heating curve to adjust?
Will it had a stove setting which was performed by the heating ??
If the installation was done properly, adjusted and adapted to the house but that indeed it is impossible to decrease the temperature, there will be no alternative but to install a buffer tank or hydro stove ... smaller.
Can you give us the face of the house, level of insulation and the heater power?
A+
0 x
-
Philippe Schutt
- Econologue expert
- posts: 1611
- Registration: 25/12/05, 18:03
- Location: Alsace
- x 33
Most of the over-configure Heating 20-30% of installations, usually the oil / gas, because it can reduce the heat but not increase beyond the max boiler.
In addition, it allows a quick change of T ° T ° night to day.
Moreover, the existing home already, he looked at what power was installed and as you have explained to him that it was not enough it will have increased by about 10% for each missing degree.
A heating is generally unable to make a real thermal balance, because it would have cored walls or film the house from all angles with a thermal camera, not in the summer. Same also for the famous experts in ECD.
Finally, the external T ° to be taken into account is fixed by zone, for example it is -15 ° for Alsace. Now we only have now the first negative T °, and still just a small -3 ° at dawn and already + 2 ° now. So it's only since yesterday that my stove is running continuously, before it was 4h in the morning, 3 for noon and 5 in the evening and cut the rest of the time. However, if it is -15 ° the stove is well sized.
So we need more information, type of pan (make and model), ECS or not, regulation mode of heating, T ° applied on the water surface of the house, insulation type and thickness, location geographical.
Anyway there is nothing that a good adjustment and a DHW tank also used in buffer can not solve. then do not worry be happy;)
In addition, it allows a quick change of T ° T ° night to day.
Moreover, the existing home already, he looked at what power was installed and as you have explained to him that it was not enough it will have increased by about 10% for each missing degree.
A heating is generally unable to make a real thermal balance, because it would have cored walls or film the house from all angles with a thermal camera, not in the summer. Same also for the famous experts in ECD.
Finally, the external T ° to be taken into account is fixed by zone, for example it is -15 ° for Alsace. Now we only have now the first negative T °, and still just a small -3 ° at dawn and already + 2 ° now. So it's only since yesterday that my stove is running continuously, before it was 4h in the morning, 3 for noon and 5 in the evening and cut the rest of the time. However, if it is -15 ° the stove is well sized.
So we need more information, type of pan (make and model), ECS or not, regulation mode of heating, T ° applied on the water surface of the house, insulation type and thickness, location geographical.
Anyway there is nothing that a good adjustment and a DHW tank also used in buffer can not solve. then do not worry be happy;)
0 x
-
mariepoussin
- I understand econologic
- posts: 63
- Registration: 29/08/11, 22:12
Thank you for your information...
Here is a more precise description:
Before our renovation, we operated with a stove splitter (misplaced because the heat does not always rode) and QLQ electric radiators (mainly bathroom).
The house: old stone house on 3 levels, terraced on the most important front. thick walls: + 60cm 5cm of lime plaster on the outside. Insulated roof: 20cm Excelsior. double glazed windows. Surface approx. 100m². Rhône Alpes region.
Volume m3: 230.
During visits with the installer, although we insisted on the meager heat demand of 2 rooms (adjoining side) that never go below the 16 ° C even in winter: living room + baby.
The installer has provided a hydraulic pellet stove and radiators (central heating), no hot water, no regulation probe int / ext without 3 way valve (what is this ??? ). No buffer tank (besides, where would it be located? It has no place !!!).
The stove installed:
Thermorossi H2O 18
Pasted the manufacturer's website:
focus Power: 4,7 to 14,8kW
Power to the water: 3,8 to 11,6kW
Power to air: 0,9 to 3,2kW
patented burner Pelletpower ®.
differential control, circulation pump, expansion vessel protection of the boiler, vent, drain valve, integrated filling valve.
Ability to complete heating station in combination with Thermocell ®.
43kg tank.
The radiators with the volume of parts in parallel:
Note that on the quote, their power was not indicated. We found them on the manufacturer's website.
Salon: // radiator m44 3: 2385 W
Kitchen: // 27 m3 the pellet stove
Room parents 51 m3 // radiator: 1820 W
Baby Room: // m32 3 2 radiators (!!!): 2350 W (cumulative power of 2)
Corridor: 17 m3 // radiator: 895 W
SDB: 14 m3 // radiator: we do not know
Office: // radiator m45 3: 1935 W
The installer has not yet explained the operation of the stove. We are doing with the instructions (very basic) ...
Water is at a minimum: 65 ° C (temp return. 73). Power skillet over 1. Speed water circuit on 1.
Half of the radiators (which does not yet have their thermostatic valve) is closedOr we die of heat. Open the towel heater and that of the living room (fully open following the advice of the installer), as the desktop.
outdoor temperature: ° C to -4 10 am.
indoor temperatures all doors open:
- Living: 24,5 ° C
- Kitchen: 21 22 to C.
- Master bedroom: 19,5 ° C
- Baby Room 21 ° C min.
- Hallway, bathroom: 22 ° C
- Office under roof: 24 ° C (Open radiator for continuous operation boiler, otherwise on / off all 1 / 4 time).
What do you think?
Should we accept a "clamping" on the stove if the installer suggests it? What would be the consequences?
Here is a more precise description:
Before our renovation, we operated with a stove splitter (misplaced because the heat does not always rode) and QLQ electric radiators (mainly bathroom).
The house: old stone house on 3 levels, terraced on the most important front. thick walls: + 60cm 5cm of lime plaster on the outside. Insulated roof: 20cm Excelsior. double glazed windows. Surface approx. 100m². Rhône Alpes region.
Volume m3: 230.
During visits with the installer, although we insisted on the meager heat demand of 2 rooms (adjoining side) that never go below the 16 ° C even in winter: living room + baby.
The installer has provided a hydraulic pellet stove and radiators (central heating), no hot water, no regulation probe int / ext without 3 way valve (what is this ??? ). No buffer tank (besides, where would it be located? It has no place !!!).
The stove installed:
Thermorossi H2O 18
Pasted the manufacturer's website:
focus Power: 4,7 to 14,8kW
Power to the water: 3,8 to 11,6kW
Power to air: 0,9 to 3,2kW
patented burner Pelletpower ®.
differential control, circulation pump, expansion vessel protection of the boiler, vent, drain valve, integrated filling valve.
Ability to complete heating station in combination with Thermocell ®.
43kg tank.
The radiators with the volume of parts in parallel:
Note that on the quote, their power was not indicated. We found them on the manufacturer's website.
Salon: // radiator m44 3: 2385 W
Kitchen: // 27 m3 the pellet stove
Room parents 51 m3 // radiator: 1820 W
Baby Room: // m32 3 2 radiators (!!!): 2350 W (cumulative power of 2)
Corridor: 17 m3 // radiator: 895 W
SDB: 14 m3 // radiator: we do not know
Office: // radiator m45 3: 1935 W
The installer has not yet explained the operation of the stove. We are doing with the instructions (very basic) ...
Water is at a minimum: 65 ° C (temp return. 73). Power skillet over 1. Speed water circuit on 1.
Half of the radiators (which does not yet have their thermostatic valve) is closedOr we die of heat. Open the towel heater and that of the living room (fully open following the advice of the installer), as the desktop.
outdoor temperature: ° C to -4 10 am.
indoor temperatures all doors open:
- Living: 24,5 ° C
- Kitchen: 21 22 to C.
- Master bedroom: 19,5 ° C
- Baby Room 21 ° C min.
- Hallway, bathroom: 22 ° C
- Office under roof: 24 ° C (Open radiator for continuous operation boiler, otherwise on / off all 1 / 4 time).
What do you think?
Should we accept a "clamping" on the stove if the installer suggests it? What would be the consequences?
0 x
Your installer is responsible.
What he has written on the estimate that you signed for execution is essential in justice, before insurance adjusters and justice.
If there is already 6 months you smother it is crucial and extremely urgent to send a registered letter well written in legal (See tips for your home comprehensive insurance defense and appeal), for the give notice to ensure the guarantee of perfect completion and boiler control ensuring 20 ° C in all conditions, not 30 ° C and even to make a report of usher with photos of all the disorders, visible, boiler, settings, position of the thermostat, etc.. to prevent leakage by making fun of you with false diversions usual lawyers and opposing insurance, as I have seen !!
Beware of distractions that make spending time to make disappear the completion guarantee period of one to two years max following terms (see for you, according to your specifications) and only have ten-year guarantee, which covers that large damage, fires, explosions, and not the details that you would have the report recommended in a prior year, for the completion guarantee.
So if 6 months have passed already, a powerful legal action must start, to cover you, and intimidate your installer, with expertise, insurance, (yours), then justice in summary.
What he has written on the estimate that you signed for execution is essential in justice, before insurance adjusters and justice.
If there is already 6 months you smother it is crucial and extremely urgent to send a registered letter well written in legal (See tips for your home comprehensive insurance defense and appeal), for the give notice to ensure the guarantee of perfect completion and boiler control ensuring 20 ° C in all conditions, not 30 ° C and even to make a report of usher with photos of all the disorders, visible, boiler, settings, position of the thermostat, etc.. to prevent leakage by making fun of you with false diversions usual lawyers and opposing insurance, as I have seen !!
Beware of distractions that make spending time to make disappear the completion guarantee period of one to two years max following terms (see for you, according to your specifications) and only have ten-year guarantee, which covers that large damage, fires, explosions, and not the details that you would have the report recommended in a prior year, for the completion guarantee.
So if 6 months have passed already, a powerful legal action must start, to cover you, and intimidate your installer, with expertise, insurance, (yours), then justice in summary.
0 x
-
mariepoussin
- I understand econologic
- posts: 63
- Registration: 29/08/11, 22:12
Thanks for your advices.
Installation is very recent: 1 week! But we already unbearable temperatures. Does that change anything for the stove setting? running-time for example?
When we discussed the problem of noise and temperatures, the installer has laughed at us and advised us to turn off the stove at night. Consequence: the house cools well and the stove carbide at full morning to compensate ...
It currently consumes 2 15kg bags of granules 24 hours ... (different features of the stove sold!)
appointment was in the week with the installer who must put thermostatic valves 5 7 of radiators.
We do not know how to approach the subject of oversizing ...
Installation is very recent: 1 week! But we already unbearable temperatures. Does that change anything for the stove setting? running-time for example?
When we discussed the problem of noise and temperatures, the installer has laughed at us and advised us to turn off the stove at night. Consequence: the house cools well and the stove carbide at full morning to compensate ...
It currently consumes 2 15kg bags of granules 24 hours ... (different features of the stove sold!)
appointment was in the week with the installer who must put thermostatic valves 5 7 of radiators.
We do not know how to approach the subject of oversizing ...
0 x
-
Obamot
- Econologue expert
- posts: 28725
- Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
- Location: regio genevesis
- x 5538
Hello Marie,
This is not my field, but in the meantime, maybe you could participate in the survey for "save the honor"!
https://www.econologie.com/forums/quel-est-l ... 11408.html
Have a good day !
This is not my field, but in the meantime, maybe you could participate in the survey for "save the honor"!
https://www.econologie.com/forums/quel-est-l ... 11408.html
Have a good day !
Last edited by Obamot the 15 / 01 / 12, 14: 10, 1 edited once.
0 x
-
roy1361
- x 17
mariepoussin wrote:We do not know how to approach the subject of oversizing ...
There is a simulator that is simple and relatively accurate on the following links:
http://therm.okofen.fr/
It concerns pellet boilers, but I think you can already get an idea of your needs.
If anyone has better ...
A+
0 x
mariepoussin wrote:Thank you for your information...
Here is a more precise description:
Before our renovation, we operated with a stove splitter (misplaced because the heat does not always rode) and QLQ electric radiators (mainly bathroom).
The house: old stone house on 3 levels, terraced on the most important front. thick walls: + 60cm 5cm of lime plaster on the outside.
Walls in what ?? What stone, earth, clay or torchi much insulation ???
Insulated roof: 20cm Excelsior. double glazed windows. Surface approx. 100m². Rhône Alpes region.
Volume m3: 230.
During visits with the installer, although we insisted on the meager heat demand of 2 rooms (adjoining side) that never go below the 16 ° C even in winter: living room + baby.
The installer has provided a hydraulic pellet stove and radiators (central heating), no hot water, no regulation probe int / ext without 3 way valve (what is this ??? ). No buffer tank (besides, where would it be located? It has no place !!!).
but a thermostat where ?? on the stove ???
best in a useful piece.
This stove can stop it or turn it always you to his mini power 7,7KW.
Where is the frying pan? in the living room too hot ???
The stove installed:
Thermorossi H2O 18
Pasted the manufacturer's website:
focus Power: 4,7 to 14,8kW
Power to the water: 3,8 to 11,6kW
Power to air: 0,9 to 3,2kW
patented burner Pelletpower ®.
differential control, circulation pump, expansion vessel protection of the boiler, vent, drain valve, integrated filling valve.
Ability to complete heating station in combination with Thermocell ®.
43kg tank.
The radiators with the volume of parts in parallel:
Note that on the quote, their power was not indicated. We found them on the manufacturer's website.
Salon: // radiator m44 3: 2385 W
Kitchen: // 27 m3 the pellet stove
Room parents 51 m3 // radiator: 1820 W
Baby Room: // m32 3 2 radiators (!!!): 2350 W (cumulative power of 2)
Corridor: 17 m3 // radiator: 895 W
SDB: 14 m3 // radiator: we do not know
Office: // radiator m45 3: 1935 W
The installer has not yet explained the operation of the stove. We are doing with the instructions (very basic) ...
Water is at a minimum: 65 ° C (temp return. 73). Power skillet over 1. Speed water circuit on 1.
Half of the radiators (which does not yet have their thermostatic valve) is closedOr we die of heat. Open the towel heater and that of the living room (fully open following the advice of the installer), as the desktop.
outdoor temperature: ° C to -4 10 am.
indoor temperatures all doors open:
- Living: 24,5 ° C
- Kitchen: 21 22 to C.
- Master bedroom: 19,5 ° C
- Baby Room 21 ° C min.
- Hallway, bathroom: 22 ° C
- Office under roof: 24 ° C (Open radiator for continuous operation boiler, otherwise on / off all 1 / 4 time
It takes a thermostat off the stove, very far, not cold against the wall, adjustable hysteresis, as between 22 or 23 19 ° C and ° C to extend the time in hours)
In my opinion, this should greatly reduce your problem.
Your values are not too catastrophic, not 30 ° C, my beautiful mother loved 25 ° C
Perhaps with 10 ° C outside means you have more 30 ° C?
What do you think?
At random, your power is not excessive for a not perfect wall at home, thick (60cm what, what stone or clay) high thermal inertia (they remain hot for several days after taking time to heat).
One difficulty is that the mini 1 / 3 is too strong, but cold -15 ° C over a week, 1 will not be too ??? .
Ideally, the stove stops long time (at least seen 6h inertia walls and T oscillating between 19 23 ° C and ° C) and restarts automatically, which is probably impossible.
Should we accept a "clamping" on the stove if the installer suggests it? What would be the consequences?
Not on, if you have a cold week in -15 ° C possible?,
Your house has great inertia, so cold one night go unnoticed.
0 x
-
- Similar topics
- Replies
- views
- Last message
-
- 3 Replies
- 4219 views
-
Last message by Did67
View the latest post
10/01/19, 18:08A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 69 Replies
- 48725 views
-
Last message by Pilpoill
View the latest post
24/01/22, 15:31A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 10 Replies
- 11779 views
-
Last message by Christophe
View the latest post
04/03/16, 14:00A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 13 Replies
- 7903 views
-
Last message by Obamot
View the latest post
03/11/12, 20:32A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 3 Replies
- 4618 views
-
Last message by bidouille23
View the latest post
27/02/12, 20:18A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
Back to "Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ..."
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : Bing [Bot] and 230 guests