Stone house: what advice energy renovation?

[fcfunky]

Hello,

I wish to gather your precious advice as for my next house (taking possession of the keys at the end of April).

Context:
I am therefore in full acquisition of an old house (certainly 19ème
century), stone (rubble 50cm minimum thickness), facing south on a
ground raised 1 700m ², in NIORT (Deux-Sèvres). This house
rectangular, non-terraced, consists of a ground floor and a floor, for a
total area of ​​230m² (including 29m² for a laundry / vestibule and 21m²
for a glass roof, not requiring to be heated as much as
other rooms).

The current insulation of the house is perfectible: insulation under crawling
the thickness of the rafters, some uninsulated wall walls, ceiling
cellar weakly isolated giving on dining room with the RDC ... By cons, the
windows are wooden, double glazed (4-16-4), with wooden shutters.

There are currently no VMCs, but two roof tiles for
pieces of water.

The current heating consists of a fuel oil boiler DE DIETRICH model GT
137 dating from 1993, which comes to heat the 15 hot water circuit
cast iron radiators of the house (of which 5 are not yet equipped with
thermostatic faucets). There is no camera
regulation / programming. Heating bill reports more than 2
000L of fuel oil / year, about 2 200 € / year.

In addition, the house has an insert in the small living room (center piece of
the house, under mezzanine). Wood consumption indicated on the DPE
is 5 steres (amenity heater). Note that the dining room
also has a chimney whose duct is closed for the time.

Domestic hot water is supplied by an 200 electric water heater
liters, of the brand ATLANTIC, dating from 2012.

We will be 4 to occupy the premises.

Finally, note that the city gas network goes too far in the street to
consider a connection.


Energy renovation plan:

With the agreement of the current owner who no longer lives in the house, I have
started passing RGE craftsmen for quotes. I am in
waiting for their figures within ten days. Until then, I read, informs me
and would like to have your advice to improve the thermal quality and the
living comfort of the house.

Knowing that I have not yet spent the winter, it is difficult to
to pronounce on this, but I am also interested in the fact
to do the heavy work before putting my furniture.

Here is my plan:

Insulation priority:
The idea would be to resume the insulation under crawling from the inside (because
reconditioning recent 2008 coverage). I'm moving towards insulation
by insufflation of cellulose wadding in compliance with the standards
allowing access to financial assistance (tax credit, assistance from the region
and the department).
In addition, I am aiming for insulation of walls facing North and West by wool
glass (120mm) behind placos.
For the cellar, cellulose wadding would also be blown into the
ceiling.
Finally, some openings will be modified: a window in the cellar, a
isolated door in the vestibule.
At the same time, for ventilation, I plan to install a VMC
simple flow in the toilet of the floor (a mouth in the toilet, the SDB of the top
and the lower SDE).

The question arises for the central heating system: that me
do you advise?
Keep the current 1993 boiler and single-sided fireplace insert?
It is mandatory to change the current boiler by a condensing model
fuel?
Replace the current oil boiler with an air / water heat pump and so
keep the cast iron radiators of the house? Is it a system adapted to
volume of heating of the house and my region (ocean climate)? if yes,
necessarily with additional heating?
The single-sided wood insert could be modified in double sided (salon / sat
with elevation of heat via the central staircase): is this a good
idea?
Install a heat pump in the boiler? retaining the existing? in
the changing?
For DHW, is the current water heater to be kept or is it better
integrate it into the central heating system (if replaced by
condensing boiler or PAC)?


That's it, I've told you everything for now. I remain super attentive to your
valuable advice and thank you in advance for your help and those of
netizens if you post this topic.


Sincerely.
fcfunky

[Christophe]

Hi and welcome here!

There is no camera
regulation / programming.

So that's the top priority to put in place.
So regulation was just right on the thermostatic valves? And I hope there is!

If you are looking for a thermostat: https://www.econologie.com/shop/thermos ... fage-c-108

With the agreement of the current owner who no longer lives in the house, I have
started passing RGE craftsmen for quotes. I am in
waiting for their figures within ten days. Until then, I read, informs me
and would like to have your advice to improve the thermal quality and the
living comfort of the house.

What is your renovation budget? A ladle? Because the craftsmen will not necessarily advise you the most economical and effective solution for you: they want to sell ...

The idea would be to resume the insulation under crawling from the inside (because
reconditioning recent 2008 coverage). I'm moving towards insulation
by insufflation of cellulose wadding in compliance with the standards
allowing access to financial assistance (tax credit, assistance from the region
and the department).

Yes it is a good solution but you will need at least 25 cm at roof level ... so see if it is compatible with you crawling.

In addition, I am aiming for insulation of walls facing North and West by wool
glass (120mm) behind placos.

As long as continue to breathe, as much stay on the wad no?

At the same time, for ventilation, I plan to install a VMC
simple flow in the toilet of the floor (a mouth in the toilet, the SDB of the top
and the lower SDE).

If the house is healthy, it is not a priority.

The question arises for the central heating system: that me
do you advise?
Keep the current 1993 boiler and single-sided fireplace insert?

Yes do not touch anything for the moment at this level: changing a boiler, even 40 years old (as long as it is regulated ... this is not your case but installing a thermostat costs "nothing") will only do 'low gain ...

It is mandatory to change the current boiler by a condensing model
fuel?

Nothing is mandatory at this level ...

Replace the current oil boiler with an air / water heat pump and so
keep the cast iron radiators of the house? Is it a system adapted to
volume of heating of the house and my region (ocean climate)? if yes,
necessarily with additional heating?

Above all, no AC air / water ... unless you work at EDF lol!

The single-sided wood insert could be modified in double sided (salon / sat
with elevation of heat via the central staircase): is this a good
idea?

Why not, but you can also easily recover the calories from the chimney by putting a ventilation system, see: heating-isolation / recovery-hot-air-fireplace-t6875.html
(also use the search engine: search.php )

Install a heat pump in the boiler? retaining the existing? in
the changing?
For DHW, is the current water heater to be kept or is it better
integrate it into the central heating system (if replaced by
condensing boiler or PAC)?

Another PAC ??

Since you seem to have an interesting budget: why not think about solar thermal?
Much more efficient than any PAC will never know ... well dimensioned you will be autonomous on the ECS during 4 5 months of the year ...

Here I have told you everything for the moment. I remain super attentive to your
valuable advice and thank you in advance for your help and those of
netizens if you post this topic.

It is done

If you have some photos of the house (internal and external) it will inspire us more

[fcfunky]

Hello Christopher,

I really thank you for the time you took to answer me. It really helps me!

To answer you, here are my different remarks:
1 / No regulator currently, but 10 cast iron radiators on 15 equipped with thermostatic valves.

2 / My renovation works budget amounts to 30 000 euros, max 40 000 euros. I agree with you: the artisans are essentially there to sell their flagship products (where they generate good margins), but not necessarily attentive to the context of old buildings in particular. It is difficult to have an objective opinion on the question, thankfully you are there! O)

3 / Regarding cellulose wadding under crawling, the idea is to leave visible the beams. The insulation pro has told me that sometimes it will be below the minimum thickness required (especially in view of state aids), but sometimes above. We are on the old, so everything is not plan. We must take the average thickness. For the walls, the idea was not to lose too much space with the insulation, especially upstairs in the corridors.

4 / I will maintain the installation of a VMC, it will not hurt, even if the house is healthy.

5 / Plus I read, and the more I come to the same conclusions about the choice of a boiler compared to a PAC. One of the heating engineers also told me, especially in relation to the volume of heating. I am afraid that indeed, the CAP makes toaster, pulling a lot on the resistance (and I do not work at EDF !!!; o))
On the other hand, what about fossil energies in the years to come? Fuel is cheap right now, but for how long?
In addition, I do not understand why you do not favor the replacement of the current boiler of 1993 by a boiler with condensation? You can develop ...

6 / The current insert has a small hot air drive motor. On the other hand, this is only oriented towards the small salon. On the other side (side SAM), there is nothing except a small ventilation grid near the open hearth (currently) that communicates with the small living room. Maybe that already brings warm air ... I do not know, I have not lived in the place yet. The idea of ​​the double-sided insert was to sit an energetic gain in the SAM and also bring a visual warmth when one is at the table. To see if it is really beneficial in terms of heat?

7 / For ECS, my question was mostly about combining with a CAP. Now that the CAP scenario is out, what if I change the oil boiler by a newer one? Combine boiler and DHW all in one? or leave 2012's recent water heater in place, with standalone electric operation?
Or solar energy as you say? I have fears about these systems on the roof (sealing, fire risks ...)? Is it reliable? You say I would be autonomous in the summer months, and the rest of the year, how does it work? The water heater works in a hybrid way: solar + electricity?

Thank you in advance for your feedback.
Sincerely.
fcfunky

[lilian07]

Hello I am at my third renovation of old house identical to the profile of your house.
Christophe is right he has tried to reduce unnecessary expenses to change the heat production system.
If I can add:
In 1 you have to isolate, as I suppose you can not have an ITE so you have to isolate wherever you can (wall and ceiling).
in 2 possibly to create big openings in the south and in 3 it is necessary to regulate ....

I would say that it would be important to study the possibility of going into a heated floor if there is room on the floor.
Triple advantage:
-on isolates on the last face that connects the outside to the interior of the building by the slab.
-Heating can be used at low temperature and you gain inertia with the concrete screed without exorbitant cost in self-construction.
-Renewable energies can be more easily used for heating (solar thermal in mind)

For the ECS as you like the CAP there are combined solar heat pump PAC (a little expensive for my taste) otherwise solar heat with backup resistance is good. Another advantage is that you can also use the thermal for heating by increasing the surface area and the boiler lift if you stay in low temperatures.

I have a water-water PAC system in 2 buildings and a fuel system in the other ... I try by all means to isolate strongly, to open the southern part and to lower the temperature by creating a floor heating, I study the possibility now to make a big thermal contribution (in self-construction) in relief by the solar one.

Good luck for your beautiful project.

[fcfunky]

Good evening Lilian.

Thank you for your advice too, nice.

This afternoon, I went on site with a softener and a heating engineer. The latter advised me to keep the good old DD boiler. It has an average life of 20-30 years, I can still do a few years with. Maybe the burner will change, but for a cost of 1000 € max. So wait and see.

In terms of regulation, he also told me that it was not mandatory in this case. In any case, not by external probe. If so, provide a wireless room thermostat, with the risk that it does not pass through the large load-bearing walls of the house. He checked the thermostatic faucets, old but of good quality. Nothing very problematic so to his liking. Only point to check with this heating system: the oil tank. Plan cleaning.

Attention, I am not specifically interested in a PAC. I'm just saying that some heating companies are pushing the Conso a bit with this solution.

For the ECS, I will certainly leave the current electric balloon.

Finally, for the insulation, no wish of ITE, because beautiful stonework jointed. I do not want to lose that seal I've been looking for for a long time. Ditto for underfloor heating: not planned to destroy the current floor.
Last thing: the house is south facing, with a lot of beautiful windows.

Thank you for your help in any case.

Christophe, if you can answer my last post, thank you. ;-)

[LOGIC12]

hello: The boiler is not very old, so powerful enough, moreover, the oil has never been so low: 0,54 euro per liter for the super. And that may last for a moment, according to what economists talk about international politics. So no need to take the gas for the moment which in addition imposes an annual subscription of 200 euros, and a lot of controls and constraints that make it very expensive.
For the PAC it takes a super insulation, otherwise it is not worth it, and then it should easily 15000 euros, and the life expectancy of these devices is 15 20 years according to brands, so it's expensive . So let it go.


For insulation, it must be ensured that there is no moisture in the bottom of the walls on the ground floor. If necessary, drain around the house all around and evacuate the water either with a sump in a point much lower and far away if there is land, or possibly to the sewer.

One problem: "the current floor" is most certainly not insulated, and it may be very uncomfortable. Let the sun come in so that it heats the ground just a little, it will already be that. And for the bedrooms, you can put a slightly thick PVC coating. Some are installed without glue, just a little double-sided on the edges, They reduce the feeling of cold of the floor and nothing is damaged.

There is also the floating floor solution on light insulating 3 6 mm. This at least in the rooms.

Cold walls require more heat, you have to know.

[Christophe]

hello: The boiler is not very old, so powerful enough, moreover, the oil has never been so low: 0,54 euro per liter for the super.

A) Yes, do not bother changing your AMHA boiler (well not right now) ... but installing a thermostat is the top priority!

Another product that could interest you live from the shop of forums: https://www.econologie.com/shop/vanne-t ... p-509.html

B) Even lower: 0.43 € / L today in Belgium for the extra! This is clearly the time to refuel ... even if it's better to heat something other than oil but good: the money is pollution (indirect) so as to buy oil, as much as it is cheaper ... (as long as you do not overheat because it is cheaper ...)

http://www.informazout.be/fr/prix_mazout

[lilian07]

And yes the fuel and low, and as well as to buy a second tank and refuel on 2 years and you win money by playing as much as possible on the price of oil ....
and then if we manage to divide by 2 its consumption by the good principle which consists in saying that the best energy and that which one does not spend then one has a container of 4 years ... and this old fuel boiler becomes the best investment this decade.
We are moving away from the ecological principle but the essential is here ... do not lose heat and keep your boiler ...
Good luck for this great project.

[fcfunky]

Hello,

Even if the fuel is low, I will not go to buy 2 tanks. O)

For the ECS, the solar thermal frightens me honestly: between the risks of disaster and the failures met by friends, that does not push me too much to make the corresponding installation.

Moreover, Christophe, at a moment of the discussion, I do not understand why you did not favor the replacement of the current boiler of 1993 by a boiler with condensation? If I count 8 000 euros for a new oil fired condensing boiler and that it brings me a savings of 20% of the energy bill compared to the model currently in place, I count nearly 25 years to make it profitable. Can you explain to me, please?

Finally, yesterday, the first costing came about the inner insulation lot:
- preparatory work of removal including
- North and West facing wall insulation for the ground floor and the floor, by glass wool GR32 120mm (R = 3.75m²KW), placos and strips,
- creeping insulation of roofs (whole house) by insufflation of cellulose wadding of 26cm + laying membrane stop vap + placos + strips, leaving visible failures (for the seal of the old) (R = 6.15m²KW)
- insulation of the low floor of the SAM above the cellar: insufflation of cellulose wadding between joists, thickness 13cm (R = 3.09²W).
The total bill is 15 700 €. What do you think?

Thank you for your feedback.
fcfunky

[lilian07]

Hello,

"Christophe, at one point in the discussion, I do not understand why you did not favor the replacement of the current boiler from 1993 by a condensing boiler? If I count 8 euros for a new oil condensing boiler and the latter brings me a saving of 000% of the energy bill compared to the model currently in place, I count nearly 20 years to make it profitable. Can you explain me, please? "

I think this is theory, your house is very complex and your boiler is in place, she knows how to give you what it takes. Also wait for your isolation operation then you can always change the boiler and it is also at this moment that you will know your return on probable investment. Your job is complex, you always have to focus on the essentials by priority and the priority is given above. In this type of construction we can quickly disperse and a showdown at the beginning it can finally quickly turn into a nightmare ...

For your insulation you should make comparative quotes because I find it a bit expensive, however I do not know the configuration of the building so my advice should be taken with a grain of salt.

If you are afraid of solar for ECS (it's legitimate), install a thermodynamic balloon, if it is in a cellar or an isolated area of ​​your life ... the return on investment is now higher. ..it's always better than a toaster.

Good luck.