Modification of a heating system (plans)

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
momo50
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 5
Registration: 14/09/10, 21:28

Modification of a heating system (plans)




by momo50 » 20/09/10, 10:57

Hello

I find myself faced with the following problem: modify my heating installation which was poorly done
the installer having filed for bankruptcy and the company liquidated, now I have to modify it myself

large gaps in the installation no mixing bottle large enough the one that was placed is 50 l instead of 150 l minimum therefore too many cycles in the hour and poor design of the installation

therefore I made another plan based on Ciat documents and I would know if my new plan is correct, if I have not made too many errors, and finally I do not know how to connect the insert

Thank you for your help

- current installation

Image

-new installation

Image
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 20/09/10, 14:31

Give as much information as impossible to guess, on the nature of the installation, the house, what you call "mixing bottle", etc. ????
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79374
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11064




by Christophe » 20/09/10, 15:00

The pictures are ok now.
On the other hand, certain legends in the 2nd are illegible: in .gif it would read better ...
0 x
momo50
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 5
Registration: 14/09/10, 21:28




by momo50 » 20/09/10, 21:01

here are the images in GIF

Image

Image

but i don't see any difference
0 x
momo50
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 5
Registration: 14/09/10, 21:28




by momo50 » 20/09/10, 23:59

could a central heating specialist help me solve my problem

please
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 21/09/10, 01:30

Amusing!!
A great investment already !!
To simplify the problem, and to be more ecological, we should add a thermal solar heating from 100 to 200m2, and a beautiful large Canadian well at 4 or 6 m deep well dimensioned with water exchanger to store summer heat and find it in winter at 50%, to heat much cheaper !!

Otherwise, the diagram shows the pipe connections but not problems of regulation, temperature measurement, solenoid valve control and the rules of the regulation program, which go with the pipe connections, all of which must remain consistent, whatever the operating conditions hot water generators, heat pump, boiler and insert and uses, radiators and sanitary water. !!.
The more we connect together the more we risk unforeseen problems, even chaos !!
So keep the possibility of operating each element alone without the effect of the others.
The resolution of possible problems will be greatly facilitated.



The heat pump has a lower efficiency for domestic hot water 55 to 60 ° C than for low temperature radiators 30 to 40 ° C (To be quantified) ???
On the diagram only the PAC heats the sanitary ??
I would tend to consider separating these 2 uses more with two mixing boxes at 2 different temperatures. ????????
In summer only the smaller toilet would work with more savings.

It is also necessary to define rules of priority of use between the different sources according to their temperatures and the desired savings and to make a list of the possible problems and incompatibilities to be respected in the connections.

Suddenly running each heat source empty may not be very good by looping them on themselves, risk of overheating, the boiler is regulated on its water temperature, the heat pump too (to be checked), but the insert can boil its water because the power of the heating wood is not regulated.
I would tend to let the insert take out its hot water somewhere as a priority as soon as it is hot, annex radiator or other, with its special circulator which accelerates if its water is too hot ???

Otherwise, the insert having a function similar to the boiler, very hot water possible, I would tend to connect it instead of the boiler as a hot water supplier, with 3-way valves, placing the insert instead of the boiler as long as its water is hotter than that of the boiler, then disconnected ???

I limit myself to these considerations because a thorough careful analysis is necessary, otherwise traps and random operation.

You must provide the specifications and instructions for the mixing box, to better understand the problems envisaged by the manufacturer, to read carefully.
It is not certain that the current problem of too many cycles per hour is due only to the size of the mixing box, but also to the unusual regulation system, to the hysteresis of the thermostats, often not adjustable but which fixes the cadence of cycles in simpler assemblies.
Details of current systems, their regulations and their interconnections must be provided.
0 x
momo50
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 5
Registration: 14/09/10, 21:28




by momo50 » 21/09/10, 07:05

thank you dedeleco for all these details concerning the mixing bottle (or BT) it is an old reserve of compressed air on which I will make the necessary tappings
for the production of hot water I only use the heat pump which currently costs me for 3 people at home 0.20 € per day in summer, with water at 55 ° which is in my opinion excellent compared to electricity that I do not use (currently I am in EJP tative)
I plan in the future in addition 2 solar panels for DHW

but for the moment what becomes urgent for me is to modify this installation because the company is waiting after me to replace the 15 cm glass wool by 25 cm of cellulose wadding because the pipes go through the floor and the time is running cold may happen

the insert is a means of total heating and a replacement when it is not very cold and even with good oak and maximum draw, I never managed to get more than 60 ° it's a 15 kw power

my house of 110 m2 living space at 6564 w of losses is located in Normandy

and the fuel boiler backup is triggered at -2 ° so in addition when I am in PM EJP I have the choice between fuel or insert

concerning the regulation it is the law of water which is used

my cast iron radiators are oversized and the water temperature of the heat pump varies from 28 ° to 42 ° depending on the outside temperature

I probably forgot some details but here is the information about my installation out of order and my priority is to know if the modified plan is correct and how to connect the insert

Thanks for your help
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 21/09/10, 14:04

If I understand correctly, the installation with the current installation diagram does not work that badly, with the connected insert ???
What is the fault specified in detail?
I would personally tend not to make changes without first understanding and being sure that we will get an improvement and not an unpleasant surprise !!
So beware of advice, including mine, and act only after having understood and verified that everything is coherent in the details !!

the insert is a means of total heating and a replacement when it is not very cold and even with good oak and maximum draw, I never managed to get more than 60 ° it's a 15 kw power

The outlet temperature was measured where, before the mixing box or in the mixing box, with what entering water temperature ?, the circulator at what flow, is it adjustable?
With 15KW of power, it seems surprising to me, if it is not very cold, the usual case in Normandy.

The slight modification of the regulation could be enough to solve your problem of "too many cycles per hour" ???
What do you call in specific details:
concerning the regulation it is the law of water which is used

An all or nothing regulation always has a hysteresis, a high threshold and a low threshold, and often the thermostats do not allow this difference in thresholds to be adjusted !! However, this difference helps to fix "the number of cycles in the hour".
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 257 guests