Energy storage gravity

[lilian07]

In production for solar exactly.
We are already sometimes very low in France but it lacks continuity. The storage problem in my opinion will paradoxically reduce this price even if it weighs down the system.

[sicetaitsimple]

In production for solar exactly.
We are already sometimes very low in France but it lacks continuity. The storage problem in my opinion will paradoxically reduce this price even if it weighs down the system.

€ 10 / MWh for solar in France in 2030? A little skeptical, but hey ...

And as you say it lacks continuity! Around December 20, the sun is low, it is sometimes cloudy and the day lasts only 8 hours.

[lilian07]

That's the problem, the month of December to June 21, which simply makes me say 90% of RE, because going to get the last 10 percent would be a bad calculation. However, there will be wind power which will be very efficient at this time (with offshort farms with 15 Mw units) and certainly good (chemical) storage but I am aware that this should not be enough even with a highly isolated habitat. and by having all the car park on the electric ... I am one of those who also think that the EV will reduce our dependence on "nuc" and "carbon" ... but it is difficult to demonstrate.
The last 10 percent would be cogeneration gas.

[sicetaitsimple]

The last 10 percent would be cogeneration gas.

Well, no! In an electrical system with a lot of intermittent renewable, it is necessary to have the most flexible and most decoupled complements possible from any operating constraint, which cogeneration is absolutely not.

Denmark is already experiencing it, with great difficulty on existing cogeneration installations.

[lilian07]

I do not really see why a gas power plant in cogeneration in the 10% missing at the peak of cold is not a solution in mix.
I understand that the coupling constraint prevents being at 80% efficiency most of the time, but with a KWh price as low most of the time, it's a safe bet that the peak KWh price would be very high ( of the order of 50 times less can be) and it is very likely that at this point there (winter), we can be at acceptable rates of return and if we do not care (very high price per KWh ) we would then have a flexible energy but which works with a yield of 20 to 30% like any other thermal source (generator, coal, biomass ...). You have to see which would be the least worst at that time (around 2030).
Maybe then that the remaining 10% will be generated by a whole bunch of small producers (microproduction of less than 1 MW) who will come to feed the network at the time or one would pass from 10 euros / MWh to 500 euros.

It is true that it is difficult to imagine, in addition to the 90% renewable energy very early in our energy transition, the type of energy that would support the network.
In any case, this stock energy must be flexible.

[sicetaitsimple]

I do not really see why a gas power plant in cogeneration in the 10% missing at the peak of cold is not a solution in mix.

There I pick up!

Did you first understand that when I said that I was skeptical I meant that I was very very very skeptical?

Do you understand that even cheap PV will have physical limits in an electrical system, except when developing storage solutions (at very high costs and which "destroy" energy) that the end consumer will have to finance at the end of the day by its invoice?

Do you understand that no "gas" solution will be developed at 10 € / MWh (your figure), except to be excessively subsidized and therefore to return in one way or another on the consumer's bill?

Do you understand that in any case electricity must (except self-consumption) be transported, distributed, taxed, and that it is not free at all (about 2/3 of your current bill)?

Think a little before you just look at market prices.

[chatelot16]

it's much simpler! photovoltaics is still too low ... we can build a lot more before needing storage

if we have more photovoltaic we will just slow down other production

we will talk about storage needs when off-peak hours are in broad daylight because we will no longer know what to do with photovoltaics

as long as the off-peak hours are at night this is proof that there is not enough photovoltaics

[sicetaitsimple]

it's much simpler! photovoltaics is still too low ... we can build a lot more before needing storage

You're right today, but Lilian07 was projected in 2030 with a PV cost of € 10 / MWh (that's his assumption) and an installed power certainly much higher than 50GW or 100GW since we would already be 90% renewable (for electricity only I think, but it's so muddy that I give up understanding something).

[lilian07]

Sicetaitsimple doesn't like simplicity, and at the risk of "trolling" people who use unpleasant terms.

even cheap PV will have physical limits in an electrical system, except when developing storage solutions (at very high costs and which "destroy" energy)

Like any physical system, but I would say that PV has less than other forms of production called stock. No complexity of implementation, no transport of material, a more reactive and quick implementation, less maintenance in technical condition, less danger for humans .... and storage at least in battery form is the system which destroys the least energy (compared to a waste thermal production which cannot function without storage elsewhere) and certainly the system which will cost the least expensive to the user.
(we do not reason today or the cost of storing electricity with battery costs around 24 cents / KWh)

Do you understand that no "gas" solution will be developed at 10 € / MWh

??
I mentioned violent variations in the price and during the 10% of need in winter we would then be rather 50 times more expensive but not long (it would be in a way the failure of an entire opimized system (intelligent, connected, reactive , sober, decentralized ....) to survive peak demand) ...

Do you understand that in any case electricity must (except self-consumption) be transported, distributed, taxed, and that it is not free at all (about 2/3 of your current bill)?

Yes I understand that our concentrated systems to produce 4 to 6 GW electric with a 25% efficiency will not survive deconcentration and the flexibility of multiple sources.
In addition, my Edf invoice of 6000 euros per year clearly indicates all the taxes and other routing and that I am aware that the KWh in France is artificially low.


It is the idea of ​​Chatelot to put a lot of PV and wind power so that all the storage solutions and price variation become really effective with margins of yield at the source still enormous to explore .... PV, Wind power , battery but also any other renewable energy system.

I think we are still too focused on our current vision of stock energy and waste, this is why I mentioned that we will be much more renewable energy consumer by 2030 than we think .

[sicetaitsimple]

I mentioned violent variations in the price and during the 10% of need in winter we would then be rather 50 times more expensive but not long to survive the peak of demand) ...

Just a note: in an electrical system marked by a lot of intermittent renewables, the peaks and the daily variations of what is called in English the "residual load", that is to say the power to be covered by controllable plants (roughly the consumption reduced by the "fatal" production) are no longer necessarily located in winter but are distributed throughout the year. Hence, in addition to its poor flexibility, the irrelevance of cogeneration to provide this "residual load".

For the rest no comment.