Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?

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Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Lolounette » 18/11/17, 11:58

Hello everyone,

I have a question that has been on my mind for some time, the answer may already be somewhere on the forum but I did not find ...

We talk everywhere about the difficulty of storing wind energy, but wouldn't it be interesting to store it in the form of potential energy, that is to say by stupidly raising water in a high reservoir when there is wind with a Noria type system beast or Archimedes screw. And we produce electricity continuously and on demand by lowering the water into a low tank which operates a turbine ...

completely silly in your opinion? what height would it take?
and if not at the level of sizing it would give what level size of the tanks, would it be playable at the residential level (like a wind turbine in the garden and the underground tank of rainwater that we would use with a high tank?)

Obviously if we all have to make a water tower in the garden to power the dishwasher it could be complicated : Mrgreen:
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by izentrop » 18/11/17, 15:19

Hello,
It's called a STEP https://www.connaissancedesenergies.org ... mpage-step
Not profitable for an individual. The yields are too low compared to a battery system. The cost is also much higher.

To calculate potential energy it's easy http://enrj.renouvelables.free.fr/energ ... lique.html
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Lolounette » 18/11/17, 15:54

It is not quite what I have in mind because it is a question of filling the top tank by pumping thanks to the turbine when there is wind if I understand correctly? indeed, it requires a big investment


I am thinking of a much less complicated system: a simple wind pump like it has existed for millennia, which works without any electricity to raise the water. The investment is therefore much less and is limited to the energy recovery part on the descent ...

in any case thank you for the track!
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Grelinette » 18/11/17, 16:08

Admittedly, all the more that the storage of potential energy in the form of an overhead water reservoir has a good yield. I think I read that the yield was around 80%.
The problem, and the specialists will give you the calculation, is that to store an interesting amount of energy in height, the volumes of water to be stored are very large, and in the end it becomes too expensive and surely unfeasible to build a large tank in height next to wind turbines to store the energy produced during the day.

Little calculation for specialists: how much water is needed, and at what height, to store the energy produced in a day by a conventional wind turbine?
(with an average production figure for a wind turbine in France: "A wind turbine with a power of 2 MW produces approximately 4400 megawatt-hours annually" or, if I'm not mistaken: 4400/365 = 12 megawatt-hours produced per day on average )
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Grelinette » 18/11/17, 16:15

That said, the idea can be interesting for us, in Provence, where we have 2 plagues: the mistral and the fires! ... :P
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Bardal » 18/11/17, 16:26

It is not so much the efficiency of the system that disqualifies it for individuals (this efficiency is around 80%, therefore comparable to that of batteries), but it is the significant size of the means to be implemented: to store 1 kWh, lift 1 Ton to 360 m high; and 1 kWh is not much.

In the steps, the volumes are stated in Km3 and the elevation differences in hundreds of meters ...

as another means of storage, the flywheel is interesting for fairly brief storage (less than an hour approximately), compressed air has a lower yield, hydrogen or methane storage is far too complex, and has a yield pretty bad; Finally, it is the good old lead-acid battery which turns out to be the most suitable for stationary household storage, not too expensive (€ 100 per kWh stored approx.), not too bulky, and with a fairly good performance (approx. 80 %); other battery technologies have some advantages, but are much more expensive ...
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Ahmed » 18/11/17, 18:02

Lolounette, you write:
I am thinking of a much less complicated system: a simple wind pump like it has existed for millennia, which works without any electricity to raise the water. The investment is therefore much less and is limited to the energy recovery part downhill ...

Except that this type of wind turbine produces very little energy (like all wind turbines flush with the floor of the cows), just enough to raise the water to ground level and with a very low flow rate. It would be very insufficient to hope to recover anything, even without taking into account the necessary infrastructure ...
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by izentrop » 18/11/17, 20:07

bardal wrote:It is not so much the efficiency of the system that disqualifies it for individuals (this efficiency is about 80%, therefore comparable to that of batteries)
No, that's the yield for large STEP.

Randomly: an already substantial turbine http://www.turbiwatt.com/uploads/FICHES ... ttT400.pdf indicates 3 kW of useful power for a drop height of 2.6 m and a flow rate of 0.2 cubic m / s, which gives a delivered power of about 5 kW, so 60% efficiency and I do not count the energy and losses to raise the water to 3 m. Small peltons are even worse in yield.

To give an idea: providing 3 kW.h of energy would require a tank of 600 cubic m to 3 m or 250 Ah in 12 V battery (and no turbine)
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by chatelot16 » 18/11/17, 21:21

that whoever wants to store 1kwh ... or 10kwh in his garden one building a water tower, with pump and turbine does the calculation ... it is more expensive than a simple lead battery, and to use the battery the inverter is commercially available ... for the water tower you have to build it yourself ... and as it is not profitable no manufacturer sells what it should

the steps are special cases: we do not build the reservoirs entirely, we are satisfied with a small dam which makes a large reservoir taking advantage of a natural valley
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Bardal » 18/11/17, 22:36

izentrop wrote:
bardal wrote:It is not so much the efficiency of the system that disqualifies it for individuals (this efficiency is about 80%, therefore comparable to that of batteries)
No, that's the yield for large STEP.

Randomly: an already substantial turbine http://www.turbiwatt.com/uploads/FICHES ... ttT400.pdf indicates 3 kW of useful power for a drop height of 2.6 m and a flow rate of 0.2 cubic m / s, which gives a delivered power of about 5 kW, so 60% efficiency and I do not count the energy and losses to raise the water to 3 m. Small peltons are even worse in yield.

To give an idea: providing 3 kW.h of energy would require a tank of 600 cubic m to 3 m or 250 Ah in 12 V battery (and no turbine)


Yes, no doubt, but a fall of 2,6m is really the lower limit of a waterfall for nano-power plants; the yield will be deplorable anyway ... That said, the conclusion is the same: it is unsuitable for storing domestic energy ...
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