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FALCON_12
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by FALCON_12 » 04/05/12, 16:19

To follow the sun in the pan (simpler than the computer), we see that all these lost rays pass between the mirror surface of the roller bottle and the pseudo focus (cusp caustic) So ideal for getting a ton is diameter pipe R / D or 2 / 4 a quarter of the diameter of the bottle half mirror, touching the surface of the mirror, to recover between 2 4 at times more light on the collector tube that without cylindrical mirror.
If R = 4cm requires a 2cm tube against the wall of the cylinder mirror that retrieves a light max 4 both surface 0 ° and about 2 times over 20 °.


I will make custom counting OptGeo rays. Or tamper with the source (LAZARUS) in Delphi to make him count the rays with the author's permission, of course.


The advantage of this solution is its simplicity, which can be achieved with smooth plastic pipes with various aluminum mylar or above, for example PVC 125 diameter split in two, with mylar and PVC pipe leaning against 32 blackened,
or half PVC pipe 63 with mylar, with leaning against a copper pipe 14-16 blackened (soot attached) or black plastic pipe 16, cheap to drip, which heat up at least twice, Similar to common air.


I have often thought of that. Every time I stopped thinking of the thermal resistance of PVC:

Conductivity Copper: 385
PVC Conductivity: 0.2!

Copper led 1925 times more heat than PVC!

So the black PVC surface is very hot, the heat exchange in the black surface and bad water, and IR radiation back will be much greater.

And hey, there is software to simulate it?


Falcon.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 04/05/12, 17:27

No, you do the math with the thickness 1 mm polyethylene against cold water and the exact units of thermal conductivity, and it does not heat more than water practically 5 ° C to close.

often puts nonessential copper, except the sanitary level, against bacteria.

Although checked with garden hose with water flowing in the sun.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusivit%C3%A9_thermique

polyethylene:
0,35 W / m ° C gives for 1 mm thick 1000 times 350W per ° C and m2 and so for 1KW of sun by m2 it is enough 3 ° C to ensure the heat flow to the water 1 mm behind, and if 4 times more concentrated (max of this solution with mylar tubes), one overheats on the surface of 12 ° C to the max if no optical losses and nothing of reflected and forgetting the surface of the greater pipe by pi = 3,14 ( circumference on diameter with the rays arriving on the sides reflected by the cylindrical mirror).
In reality therefore it will overheat surface to 5 10 ° C with polyethylene pipes for drop by drop 16mm within the 20m € 100, which take over 10 years in the sun without water in my garden 83.

Copper and silver have a huge thermal and electrical conductivity by the large free range of their electrons.
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FALCON_12
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by FALCON_12 » 04/05/12, 20:43

No, you do the math with the thickness 1 mm polyethylene against cold water and the exact units of thermal conductivity, and it does not heat more than water practically 5 ° C to close.

Thank you for your reply. I understand by not well at all against you answer me. What do you mean ?

often puts nonessential copper, except the sanitary level, against bacteria.

Although checked with garden hose with water flowing in the sun.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusivit%C3%A9_thermique



Thermal diffusivity is a variable characterizing the thermal permeability of a material with a thermal pulse signal w is equivalent to the inverse of impedance in electrical circuits. Here we are continuously, the thermal signal is at zero frequency, w = 0.


polyethylene:
0,35 W / m ° C gives for 1 mm thick 1000 times 350W per ° C and m2 and so for 1KW of sun by m2 it is enough 3 ° C to ensure the heat flow to the water 1 mm behind, and if 4 times more concentrated (max of this solution with mylar tubes), one overheats on the surface of 12 ° C to the max if no optical losses and nothing of reflected and forgetting the surface of the greater pipe by pi = 3,14 ( circumference on diameter with the rays arriving on the sides reflected by the cylindrical mirror).
In reality therefore it will overheat surface to 5 10 ° C with polyethylene pipes for drop by drop 16mm within the 20m € 100, which take over 10 years in the sun without water in my garden 83.


I confess I do not understand what you say. Could you say otherwise? A thickness, copper conducts heat much better than PVC, and our problem is to transmit the heat to the water through the walls of the pipe.

You say, for simplicity, that if I put a pipe (for example) 20 minutes from copper to one millimeter thick, blackened, with a rate D evacuation, I get a Theta surface temperature. And that therefore, if I replace the pipe material of PVC, all things being equal, I get Theta + 5 as surface temperature? That's it ?

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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 04/05/12, 21:55

That is with a thickness of 1mm between the water and the absorption of the sun.
This thickness is small so that copper is not essential.

1mm is 1000 times less than 1m and therefore the heat flow is 1000fois higher for the same difference T and the same surface.
The table of values ​​for plolyéthylène (better than PVC in the sun and UV merger) gives 0,35W / m ° K so we 350W / m2 for thick 1mm instead of 1 m.
So 1KW / m2 of sun gives 1000 / 350 = 3 ° C approximately.
more solar concentration by cylindrical mirror reflects the greater part of the rays on the sides of the tube on a surface as Pi.Diamètre the tube. its length L instead of DL if no mirror. Especially as this mirror illuminates the sun hidden side of the tube and does not greatly increase the surface T, but increases the heat supplied with water by at 2 4 = Diameter half cylindrical mirror diameter of heated hose.


I hope it's clearer.

I put the wikipedia diffusivity
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusivit%C3%A9_thermique
because it gives all thermal basic values ​​in table used to calculate the diffusivity by the report: thermal conductivity of heat capacity, etc .., to hold minimum.
The thermal conductivity is dynamic, heat flow, falsely static but basic in diffusivity, which is similar to the penetration of a radio frequency or sudden magnetic field in a metal, with penetration depth as the square root of time, or the inverse of the square root of the frequency. This is not an impedance, since there is no wave propagation constant speed, but broadcast, random walk, with advance slowing as the square root of time.

By putting a contact thermometer (thermocouple or infrared) on the surface of 14x16 pipe with cold water circulating in the sun, we verify my claim.

It also checks the putting hands on a similar hose with cold water flowing in, it is not hot at all, unlike the same burning pipe without water in the sun.
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FALCON_12
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by FALCON_12 » 04/05/12, 22:43

I hope it's clearer.


Not so much for me, forgive me.

According to you, to the final, what will the temperature rise induced by the use of PVC instead of copper?

I put the wikipedia diffusivity
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusivit%C3%A9_thermique
because it gives all thermal basic values ​​in table used to calculate the diffusivity by the report: thermal conductivity of heat capacity, etc .., to hold minimum.
The thermal conductivity is dynamic, heat flow, falsely static but basic in diffusivity, which is similar to the penetration of a radio frequency or sudden magnetic field in a metal, with penetration depth as the square root of time, or the inverse of the square root of the frequency. This is not an impedance, since there is no wave propagation constant speed, but broadcast, random walk, with advance slowing as the square root of time.


We are at zero frequency, we are interested in a passive heat resistance problem in steady state. w = 0, the diffusivity has no influence here in our problem.

By putting a contact thermometer (thermocouple or infrared) on the surface of 14x16 pipe with cold water circulating in the sun, we verify my claim.

It also checks the putting hands on a similar hose with cold water flowing in, it is not hot at all, unlike the same burning sun without water pipe

This is not the issue, to me it seems. A hose without water, sunlight, eventually heat (for broadcast in its thickness) heat (energy) received from the sun. The cold water will cool the flow. Then, every second, the sun transfer to the pipe surface energy E, a power P which will cause heating of the surface of the pipe. This energy can not easily or through the thickness of the pipe and deliver every second heat. If so (if it is copper, very good heat conductor), joules easily cross and are removed by the water flowing through the pipe. So the pipe surface temperature is close to that of water, low thermal resistance creates a low temperature drop. If now the pipe wall lets evil go the received energy (PVC for example) the temperature gradient is much greater. At the extreme, however, if the material is a perfect insulator, no energy can pass through, and it accumulates on the receiving surface, its temperature increases and less able to evacuate this energy by convection or IR radiation it is ensured cast. The temperature gradient is therefore proportional to the thermal resistance of the pipe. In our case it prevents breakage because the exchange surface of the pipe is large enough and air enough (relatively) cold. So there convection and IR radiation. But the performance suffers. Diffusivity has nothing to do with our problem. It is used only transient or sinusoidal mode or in response to a level or temperature Dirac, or permanent periodic solicitation. Here we are in steady state, with solicitation (the sun), constant, zero pulse, in materials to finished thickness.

Amortization A induced diffusivity is: exp (z / delta (omega))

Here the delta quantity (omega) is + infinity as delta (omega) = sqrt {2. D \ omega} and omega = 0 (pulse).

Therefore A = 1 which means: no damping: the temperature is the same at all points of the thickness of the material, we are steady, dissemination was made. The energy flows into the thickness constant density. Diffusivity do not play. A does not depend on z, the depth, it is 1.


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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 04/05/12, 23:11

Read at least the diffusivity wikipedia text because it gives a table of thermal conductivity materials that I do that using, Instead of refusing to read this table because of the title diffusivity, who needs this table to calculate the diffusivity and provide all the basic data points for each material, essential to avoid mistakes.

Read on wikipedia bases on thermal conductivity and thermal conduction, too.

The thermal conductivity as the electrical resistance is dynamic and not static, in physqiue because dissipative . even in steady, like a river flowing by spinning mills.

I can not help if you had bad taught physics class (very common), developed to instill misconceptions, he has to correct at a higher level.

Calculate the temperature drop on 1 mm polyethylene (no PVC, which melts in the sun without water) 1KW / m2., Have instead of writing full sentences without any figures, which show that you have a good scientific culture in vocabulary but rarely quantitative.

I only do this, you can also for copper (report 1000 times fable about).

It should not be limited to impressions without evaluating the orders of magnitude, if we get stuck, as you do, writing that only enough copper leads, without any precise quantification and we spend lots of copper totally unnecessarily expensive !!.
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FALCON_12
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by FALCON_12 » 04/05/12, 23:13

Good so I took a solar angle of 23 ° and sought the minimum radius r for total interception of sunlight. So I, for a radius R equal to 226 mm minimum radius r min 64, a ratio of 3.53.

So the problem of Mr. Shuttler must use a minimum radius for the pipe, positioned against the edge of the bottle of 40 / 3.53 11.3 = min. Is a diameter of 22.6 mm.

So it goes about with copper pipe 22 mm diameter.


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FALCON_12
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by FALCON_12 » 04/05/12, 23:46

Read at least the diffusivity wikipedia text because it gives a table of thermal conductivity materials that I do that using, Instead of refusing to read this table because of the title diffusivity, who needs this table to calculate the diffusivity and provide all the basic data points for each material, essential to avoid mistakes.


I read everything, the table does not add or detract from the fact that the diffusivity here has nothing to do with our problem.

The following comes from your document, sir, did you read what I write? I give it to you.

1- We are static, you agree to: therefore omega or w, is 0 rad / s.

According 2- your document wikipedia A depreciation induced diffusivity is: exp (z /delta (omega))

According 3- your document wikipedia quantity delta (omega) + infinity is as delta (omega) = sqrt {2. D \ omega} and omega = 0 (the heartbeat), we are static (according to you and me, so).

So unstoppable, mathematically, A = 1 which means: no damping: the temperature is the same at all points of the thickness of the material, we are steady, dissemination was made. The energy flows into the thickness constant density. Diffusivity do not play. A does not depend on z, the depth, it is all in 1 z.

This is from Wikipedia this document that you give yourself and complies with your own words. This is also consistent with the fact that no calculation of heat loss in a house or a heat receiver, takes into account the establishment of the distribution regimes but established regimes.

Here Mr.

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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 05/05/12, 00:28

You can read or blind, you follow your preconceptions ??

Read at least the diffusivity wikipedia text because it gives a table of thermal conductivities materials that I do that using, Instead of refusing to read this table because of the title diffusivity, who needs this table to calculate the diffusivity and provide all the basic data points for each material, essential to avoid mistakes.


I uitilise Table of thermal conductivities materials that gives this article on the diffusivity !!!

There 0,35W / m ° K thermal conductivity of polyethylene, and diffusivity does me that have this value !!!!

Most insulation and bulk materials, metals are not in this range, such as wood, plastics, etc ... between 0,1 and 1 about.

Otherwise, some overheated with their home in the sun, by heat, even old who died, suffered from not knowing the thermal diffusivity forgotten in the course of the houses (called misleadingly phase) !!

Also some thermal regulation work poorly because of not understanding the thermal diffusivity.

Anyway, I see the word diffusivity prevents you from see the table of thermal conductivities in this wikipedia article:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusivit%C3%A9_thermique

I invite you to read for reaching the line of the column thermal conductivity polyethylene, instead of defending against blindly.

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plasmanu
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by plasmanu » 05/05/12, 05:41

For the thermal conductivity.

Ranking
1-427 money
2-399 copper
3 316 gold
...
good last look 0.026

a simple money in a transparent tube under vacuum wire: it is a collector of luxury high efficiency.

And there is no question of prices of materials, but labor intensive.

Jewelery: I had to weld half submerged in silver coins.
It's amazing the heating power to counter the heat sink to mount the room when we 900d ° ° to 100d few cm near the contact with water.
Who protects the semi-precious stones that are exploded by the dissipation otherwise.
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