Hydrogen, storage and production: evolution and H2 technologies

[Fakir]

Well, and then to make it, you need carbon ... coal?

Or Perrier...


In addition, nature throws it into nature http://www.planetoscope.com/atmosphere/ ... monde.html

Extract: "Scientists have shown that forests produce nearly 100 million tonnes of formic acid per year globally, 3 times more than the sources identified so far."


http://french.alibaba.com/product-gs/ho ... 93470.html

And it's almost given by the Chinese: EUR 613.03 - 735.63 / Ton

With 62 grams of H2 per liter on a heat pump (I count 7.5 kg H² per 1000 km), we can estimate a consumption at 11 l / 100 km and 80 cents per liter HT.


We only release CO2 and H².

Why not

[BobFuck]

Formic acid is used here as an H² vector.
H² must be used in a heat pump to produce electricity and heat pumps have an efficiency 4 to 6 times more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

Actually yes, but no.

Modern automobile diesels have a drinking yield, 30-40% (if we forget about cancers ...), the heat pump is around 50%, so not 4 to 6x better.

So a fuel cell car, it would clear the lungs a lot, but for consumption, only a little better.

On the other hand, if you take a brele with a pett engine 2 times, there, the output is monstrously to shit, we can have 5%. What makes that a light machine which requires very little power to move consumes almost as much as a small car!

With an efficient heat pump on an electric two-wheeler, or even on an "oiture" of 2kg, you could have an enormous autonomy and a ridiculous consumption, and there, jackpot.

Otherwise, there is an interesting subject: artificial photosynthesis, with a catalyst, CO2 + sun + water gives something that can be used directly, for example methane, or indirectly (water + sun -> hydrogen). Can't wait for it to happen!

[Fakir]

Modern automobile diesels have a drinking yield, 30-40% (if we forget about cancers ...),

In established regime surely, but in the majority transients in town, the yield collapses! This is the interest of hybrids.

indirectly (water + sun -> hydrogen). Can't wait for it to happen!

The efficiency of the overall H² chain is better for the manufacturing part without discussion.
80% at least for electrolysis.
Obamot shows the figure of 60% yield for formic acid, this is still very good.

The difficulty with H² is its storage.

I am not racist these two solutions are good and available.

They are above all profitable and ecological

So if in addition, we add to these vehicle, a small rechargeable battery in 220 V ...

[Gaston]

The efficiency of the overall H² chain is better for the manufacturing part without discussion.
80% at least for electrolysis.

I don't think the best electrolysers reach 60%

Obamot shows the figure of 60% yield for formic acid, this is still very good.

And another 50 to 60% for the fuel cell ...

In the end, from the point of view of efficiency, it is much better to store electricity in batteries

[Fakir]

[I don't think the best electrolysers reach 60%

you think wrong.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lectrolyse_de_l'eau

The best in stack go up over 90%.

http://www.cstfelicien.qc.ca/Scinat/cyb ... w05c02.pdf

In order to maximize the hydrogen production of our electrolyser, we experimented with various electrolytes at normal or high pressure. The results have shown that sodium hydroxide – a strong base – gives an energy yield of around 90% which is clearly superior to sodium bicarbonate. The variation of the volume due to the electrolysis of water, it is impossible for us to draw conclusions about the influence of temperature and pressure.

In the end, from the point of view of efficiency, it is much better to store electricity in batteries

Except that you forget to take into account:
- battery consumption: limited lifespan and high cost
- Loading time.

Hence for me a solution -> a small battery for the first 50 km (99% of needs) rechargeable on 220 V mains and formic acid tank.

[Gaston]

Except that you forget to take into account:
- battery consumption: limited lifespan and high cost

The life of the fuel cell is not much better
And if we look at the cost side, we must then take into account the electrolyzer, the formic acid "generator", the catalyst extracting hydrogen.

- Loading time.

This is the only clearly favorable point.

Hence for me a solution -> a small battery for the first 50 km (99% of needs) rechargeable on 220 V mains and formic acid tank.

Why not, but if it is for 1% of the needs, you might as well keep an oil vehicle next to a battery vehicle.

[Fakir]

Why not, but if it is for 1% of the needs, you might as well keep an oil vehicle next to a battery vehicle.

Yes, but not in practice. It is this 1% that makes electric cars not sell and will not sell.

[Obamot]

Well then, the whole problem is there: the consumer.

Since even with an electrical network that is developed everywhere, vehicles equipped with batteries as the main energy resource are struggling to sell ...

Although not too pessimistic I can hardly believe it. The only interest for the moment is to know that they exist.

For charge time and durability, graphene ultracondensers charge in record time, their lifespan is given to 1/2 century with barely 10% drop in charge due to their aging, and new techniques are economical (since we no longer need to use nanotubes, so we can do it with graphene which is not super pure ...).

So indeed, a hybrid with a small reservoir of formic acid would be a good solution. But with ultracapacitors, the question of autonomy would be settled.

Anyway, what we are trying to do is store solar energy: therefore formic acid is a solution for the future that would have its place, whatever happens ...

Buying a car goes through the ego, that's the problem!

[chatelot16]

the performance of an electrolyser can be very good if it is big and heavy, and as it is fixed there is no reason to deprive it

for the fuel cell in the vehicle it is more complicated: it must be light, and the performance is generally not glorious ... sometimes not better than a good diesel

the idea of ​​chemically combining hydrogen to make a liquid is good

but the best is to combine hydrogen only with carbon which is also an energy carrier: therefore carbon

and it's not just coal that makes carbon: photosynthes and biomass is also there!

fischer tropsh synthesizer exists to make synthesis fuel with biomass: if we add hydrogen we can reduce the need for biomass

[moinsdewatt]

It comes out 3 years later:

Hydrogen becomes a liquid fuel, thanks to atmospheric CO2

04 2014 June Enerzine

Transforming hydrogen into a low-flammable liquid: EPFL researchers are bringing the last element to their complete solution to manage the storage and transport of the fuel of the future. Their work is published in "Nature Communications".

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. But this clean gas, which releases only steam, remains highly explosive. It must be stored and transported under pressure in bulky containers. This not very docile character poses problems of security, logistics and profitability which strongly hamper its use.

The solution may lie in the work of EPFL researchers.

The latter have developed a simple system, based on two chemical reactions: the first transforms hydrogen into a liquid that is easily storable and less flammable than gasoline – formic acid – while the second does exactly the opposite. and releases hydrogen. Thus transformed, the gas can be stored simply and without risk. Another possible application: using atmospheric CO2, responsible for the greenhouse effect, to synthesize many chemical products.

.................

in full for those who like geotrouvetout which will end or not in industrial solution:
http://www.enerzine.com/14/17351+lhydro ... ique+.html