Note2be.com, those teachers who do not support their notes

[Remundo]

In class prepa, it is seen immediately in TD, interruptions written and oral. There are 2 or 3 per week

And it's even better with the results at the engineering competitions. But this is a very special case in many ways ...

It is true that in high school, the assessment is much more disjointed, even on the edge of I'men foutisme (when I was a student, average 2 written notes in the quarter ...)

[marcel]

Remundo puts it right. Pedagogy has a human dimension referring to the long construction of an individual. This slope is not the subject of relevant and systematic recruitment. The competitions are purely didactic.
It is also relatively difficult to judge a pedagogue on a few hours early in his career (and even before it begins). For this I am more in favor of a long apprenticeship-type training with a tutor.
But it's like that, there are archaisms in the system. We have never really been concerned about conveying good ideas. Every teacher who starts his career starts the history of pedagogy from scratch.
Because there is also another aspect of pedagogy. These are the tools, the methods that are passed on to teachers. The teacher is often caught in a paradox: to carry out a definite program or to advance each pupil according to his initial skills and his real abilities. However, since I was in the big house, I did not meet any trainer and even less found work taking into account this ambiguity.
Everything is planned for the students able to succeed, competent, disciplined, docile and cooperating. Nothing is thought out to deal with possible difficulties, they take source in students or teachers.

I would not qualify Renaud, since we do not give tools to teachers and we do not train them to pedagogy, we have to find geniuses able to rethink and remedy all The problems. I campaign, at my level, so that we are able in the EN to circulate the good ideas, to build together the best tools (thought for a true differentiated pedagogy), to accompany those who struggle ( students as teachers) without stigmatizing them. If we manage to change the rules of the game, to build this kind of operation, then we can blame someone else for not giving himself enough to his task.
But you are misleading. The initial training of teachers and institutes is not much. For example, my wife is a teacher in CP schools. His training in learning to read comes down to 6 hours of classes in a dark class of an IUFM.

[renaud67]

Take a question that I'm not sure of and I do not really have an answer (I insist on the fact that this question is not meant to be polemical): why do the students drop? (at least until the BAC but also the stroke logically higher) because if the number of bacheliersr increases, we know why!

PS: it seems to me that in staps (training teacher of sport) they have courses of peda.
PS2: yes it is really a shame to have to start from scratch for a new teacher concerning not only the courses but also and especially the pedagogy even if a method can be good for one class and for another

[marcel]

Just Renaud. In all my career, the only trainers I have seen take into account the need to transmit procedures, learning and evaluation tools, practical sheets, programming, taking into account the potential of each, this are the trainers in physical education.
It's cultural. In sport you can not pretend to do the same for everyone. When a coach takes a group of athletes in hand, he never proposes the same exercises, the same progression plans for each athlete. He adapts. But for this, it has balls, references, programming validated by the experiments on many athletes.
The thread is not really devoted to the reasons for the level decline. They are very diverse. The teachers have not really changed. They were told to change their pedagogy. But we never put them in their hands what was necessary. And then the teachers are there to teach day by day, it's not up to them to reinvent pedagogy. There are hundreds of people who work at research centers or pedagogical doubling. Curiously, we never talk to them when we see a problem at school. The level drops, it's always the fault of teachers ... normal, we only know them!
Me, I see onlookers all the time, parents, little bosses, senior officials, who bawl: "There must be ...!"
Give them a class to these little malignant and we'll see if they are able to revolutionize pedagogy, to maintain the top level of the months and years, to find the solutions that raise the level. I have spent ten years developing my differentiated pedagogy and I estimate that I am only at 10 or 20% of what should actually be done. But I'm not a magician, I'm all alone, nobody comes to help me.
I am told, must do the pedagogy of the concrete, problem situations, real experimental sciences, individualization, transversality ... To put me at the page, I do an internship 3 weeks on the problem situations . Finally, I come back in my class with 2 situations problems applicable to my class. Who can believe that I will complete a school year with two examples?
I am told use computer techniques. OKAY. I do 3 weeks of internships, which I dedicate to explain to old croutons how to turn on a computer. From trained I become trainer. Wasted time. I am told put computers in your class. Yes but the mayor does not want and then I have 45 m² for 25 students. I put them where the machines.
The life of a teacher, it looks like that ... a succession of episodes more disarming than each other.
I know, from the outside, it seems idyllic. False impression.

[crispus]

why are the students' level falling?

You're not there, an inspector one day explained that it's only the teacher's impression : his expertise in his discipline increases every year, so his level moves away from that of his students

[renaud67]

for marcel ...
25 students it's all you a privileged
more seriously: I do not throw the stone at the teachers (but you will probably have noticed ... my father was prof ... bio One thing when CATM prepa classes were removed at the national level, he decided instead to go to paris in another prepa branch to stay in Marseille and teach high school and it was hard for him and it was already there 20 years, although some high school students have continued him write after passing in his hands: all that to say that it is indeed very, very, very difficult to interest a whole class)
I think our teaching is too cerebral globally: how much practice after the third? when I was in college I was able to work in woodworking, iron ... (in a classical course) it changes rather than spend an hour (or two, or three) of math at an hour English then one hour of physics ...

[Flytox]

Hello Marcel

Flytox, how do you make it fit pedagogy in the curriculum and in the skull of the teacher? Do you think he decided alone in his little corner to be a bad pedagogue? At what moment of his training did you put in your hands and in the head something to be a good teacher? And what's a good teacher by the way? The one who pleases, the one who locks, the one who advances the weakest to the detriment of the best, the one who makes elitism at the expense of the less gifted? You are very great philosophers to have such a definite opinion! (Fashionable expression on the thread)
And then it is not enough to arrive on the stadium by claiming that the psg plays like manchester so that the players start to tease correctly the balloon! We have only what we deserve. The teachers are not good, should not select them, had to train them, must train them, give them tools, a better working environment (and I do not say that for you to turn it illico in more sub and less students, more staff and fewer hours). Even putting a lot of money on the table and training centers galore, we leave a zidane every 20 years. And you want 100% of teachers above the melee. The teachers are men and women like the others: they were children, they work, they are parents, or big, parents, they come from all the circles and were not selected in I do not know what imaginary breeding of fumitists budding.

It is obvious that we must be alone in front of a class that is not always easy and when we have had training not so much or not at all oriented towards real needs ..... and no one outside to rely on. Contrary to what you might suppose, I think that a teacher is a difficult job and that no one asks teachers to be supermen. But each man is capable of progressing and improving even if the starting level in pedagogy is "judged" insufficient.

The lonely step of trying to improve is good and conscientious, but when one is judge and part it is not very effective. For a constructive critic to exist it is necessary to have the information perception of others. Other it can also be the pupils, another prof spectator, a camera etc ...

What is your intelligent feedback? If you have a good method, write to the ministry. The teacher, he does not have the power to change the rating systems, recruitment, training.
Again feedback for what ???? You can give as many bad grades as you want to a student, it will not become good anyway ... it may even worsen. Why take this unfair and stupid system to charge the prof.

What we call the lack of pedagogy, it is often a problem of communication "bad" adapted to its audience. There are a number of techniques that allow you to improve, I have not invented anything on the subject .

I was thinking more particularly of the attitude that we take which does not convey the same message as what we say. An example you seem to be interested in your job as a teacher and trying to do the best you can, but at the same time look at the contemptuous language you use when talking about your students. Even the most "morons" of your students will feel it and it will have consequences on your communication ...

Privilege of what? Privilege to have bad pupils in front of the muzzle? Me I work 50 h per week (it's not a complaint), I fuck bullshit all over the planet too. My training comes down to a bunch of nonsense.

I underwent "Assertiveness" training which makes us think, among other things, about this kind of problem, it says that 80% of communication is in gestures / attitudes and not in words !!! all of the interns challenged ... at first, and we all made significant progress in communication. There were difficult scenes (example of work) to play. There the feedback was a camcorder + the others watching and giving their analysis. It's stripping ... but a great source of progress.

So, if you want, yes there are bad teachers. The problem is not only to detect it, it is mainly to remedy it.

I would rather say, there is a minority of "bad" teachers who should not be left alone in the difficulties and let the future of dear blond heads erode.

A+

[Gilles]

why are the students' level falling?

You're not there, an inspector one day explained that it's only the teacher's impression : his expertise in his discipline increases every year, so his level moves away from that of his students

Then, there, if, he is there completely.
The inspectors (who have sometimes not been doing "fieldwork" for a long time) are rather poorly placed to get an idea on this particular subject. Their "analysis" of this "impression" which is not one, is only a supposition which they set up as a thesis and which they self-dispense with demonstrating, by allowing themselves, in addition, to slap the intelligence of the teachers who make this indisputable observation.

One of the arguments of the defenders of this very politically correct theory would be that Socrates was already saying that, and that if it were true, all humanity would have had time, since Socrates, to reach IQ of the earthworm. Very funny, what can be said to math.

The level of students drops, but simply in the time scale of one or two career (s) of prof. This is the current trend, quite simply. There must have been, since Socrates, periods with improving tendencies, which have not made so many waves, that's all.

Do not we say that we only talk about late trains, and never those who are on time?

The drop in level is demonstrable, or rather, directly observable: it is enough (and it is very easy) to compare, the levels of requirement that we can afford to have at different "stages" of evolution of a student, what notion of math did the 5th year class of machintruc high school achieve in June 2007, compared to that of June 1987, for example ...
Better: at the transition from secondary to higher (university or not), teachers find that the prerequisites necessary for the proper understanding of their courses are less and less acquired by the students who come before them on exams.

Even more better than better: some universities (like the one where I studied: Faculté Polytechnique de Mons, in Belgium) admit not after a competition, but an entrance exam. A few years ago, they were forced to lower the level of this entrance exam. For a few years now, universities and colleges have been organizing "remedial" courses a few weeks before the entry into the first year of the baccalaureate (by obviously calling on teachers to volunteer).

If a cure is needed, there is a problem, right?

The problem is known, but you, because partially politically incorrect.

I am a teacher in Belgium since 7 years (after 7 years in private), I teach various subjects to graduates and engineers, so this is the situation in Belgium (which may be a little different from the French situation) .

1) The financing system: the schools (secondary schools, ie those leading to the baccalaureate) are financed in proportion to the number of pupils, so the directors adopt (and understandably) a clientelist attitude towards pupils and their parents, sometimes severely disassociating themselves from their professors, who thus lose all authority, and favor the sale of graduates with a view to popularity. In some areas (disadvantaged, it must be said), the mentality of the population is a mentality of welfare recipients, the school is only the way to obtain the papers that will allow to go to receive the allowances of unemployment and other social benefits. This does not concern at all, as a good speech politically correct, but misleading, should clarify, a minority that blah blah blah ...

2) Pedagogues: Secondary school teachers are "supervised" by pedagogical offices where permanent officials are stationed (because of the appointment and priority systems based solely on seniority and political support, and not on all based on merit or skills), which are usually found there because they were not up to the task, on the "field". It is therefore the worst teachers who will teach others a lesson (real story, I'm not inventing anything). These people follow smoky training courses and learn the very empty dialectics that they will use again for the teachers that they will "train" during conferences. The content of these conferences would be hilarious (lived!) If it were not legal. Indeed, these nullities have the power to make of their convulsions directives which the teachers are obliged to follow. The educators themselves base their theories on assumptions which are dictated by politics, demagoguery and fashionable social theses (such as "everyone has the same intelligence").

3) Politics: Demagogues skillfully use numbers to boost their popularity. They translate "number of graduates" by "success rate", and inflate this number by instituting the mechanisms (see 1) which put pressure on the establishments to release "in nature" full of young people full of illusions, because that they have a cabbage leaf, but alas, not full of knowledge ... they are the first victims, moreover, because they are made to believe that the doors of all institutes of higher education are theirs. open, when they are going to break their teeth. They also confuse "equality of opportunity" with "equality of means", or even with "everyone must be graduated". It has become politically incorrect to speak of intelligence, and pedagogically incorrect to use the verb "to understand" (lived). Result: the diploma has less and less value. If "everyone graduated", it's kind of like nobody is, right?

Why do the inspectors reply to this theory (that of the quote)? To cover yourself. They are the ones I am aiming for at 2. They are responsible for the situation, not the teachers.
All teachers dream of being able to raise their level of requirement, but they are forbidden.

I am lucky to be a teacher in higher education, and so I can afford to be demanding, I refuse to participate in remediation, because I think that by doing so, I would be complicit in the decline of secondary , by endorsing, in a way, the inadequacy of the training of young people at the end of secondary school, and by taking in my charge, the task of bringing them to the level required to start higher education, task which is incumbent on the secondary, by definition.

[Remundo]

I would just ask a sassy little question ...

In the sentence "the level is falling"

What designates precisely the word "level"

[Gilles]

At the same time the complexity of the problems that they are able to solve, that the sum of work that they are able to provide.

By dint of asserting "it is better to have well-made heads than full heads", we come up against two foreseeable consequences:

- flickering bases (I think mostly math, etc ... being an engineer, and teaching subjects where math, resistance of materials, etc ... are important for the understanding of the notions seen).

- great difficulty in tackling subjects where the amount to be studied is important. For this last point, I think that the problem finds its source in the whole of schooling, from the beginning of the primary cycle (at six years). We are not prepared for higher studies, because we do not have "training". To study ten pages is to climb Everest. It is urgent to return to a part of "by heart", such as recitations, etc ... It no longer exists at all in current teaching. My eleven year old son comes home frequently from school telling me that he has had time to do his homework in class.

The heads are too empty at 18 years, the secondary has really tumbled.

The remediation I am talking about in my previous post is in mathematics. The a level has become genuinely insufficient to undertake engineering studies.

We could also speak French: in the mid-sixties, an apprentice teacher during a test lesson (and their training counted a large number) was entitled to ... zero spelling mistakes, only one , and it was failure.

Today, because of the fall of a level in this area (too!), we are left with young people of 18 years, full of illusions, who think themselves on the point of having only the embarrassment of the choice as for model of BMW as soon as they will be super-pdg, that is to say the day after tomorrow, but it is difficult to decode what they write on their exam papers so much their written French is riddled with mistakes.

But, fortunately, today, future teachers are given, among other things, the very indispensable course oftheoretical approach to cultural diversity (I swear, it's not a joke, they really have a class that's called like that !!)