Debate on debt and false pretenses

[nlc]

Invest also in the stone with a piece of land to cultivate a garden ... it could serve one day!

Bah right now is better to invest in the stock market, it's the right time there are opportunities to seize!

[Philippe Schutt]

There is a problem of scale of values, I do not have the feeling that we are going towards ultra-liberalism when the expenditure of the state represents more than 50% of GDP (54%). For me, above 50% we are in a socialist country.
I doubt that changing the system improves the lives of the little people.

If this universal income were to replace everything, how long before demagos or shady politicans would resurrect help of any kind to help buddies or boost their electorate?

[Obamot]

Oh really why? The system of the little friends it has not already been invented?

What is the fate of the "little people" as a percentage of the working population?

With regard to the percentage of GDP, does this reason alone not advocate reform of such a system ...?
Frankly there's nothing to lose, apparently ...

What the proponents of liberalism brandish every time, is the motivation of men, supposedly "based on taking responsibility" ... while also everything to disempower and bully people ...
All this is just a big caricature to make us swallow anything ...

Since such a system - which would find a better balance and a more equitable formula search - there is little doubt that motivation would be there, whereas the current system tends to put everybody on the hind legs ...

Mebon, knowing the man, I think he is not yet ready anyway. Only an even more serious crisis would be a trigger. But this is not to be desired ... for the "little people" of which I humbly consider myself to be a part.

[Philippe Schutt]

Yep, but it annoys me, I have no friend minister ...

This post has me paired some research and I came across this:
http://www.eclaireco.org/poidsetat

So I wonder if we ask ourselves the right questions ...

[Obamot]

Arf, it's funny to ask the question to people who do not know anything else Philippe!

Basically, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that everyone is scared

And personally I have experienced "economic liberalism", and I can tell how it ruins decent people. And even that when they are ruined they do not benefit from any help. The whole system is built to deter them.

The guy who shot all those people in Norway, does that surprise you? Would he have gone mad? Speculation is going well but the least we can say is that the discomfort is growing. Whenever a case like this bursts, we are told that the guy is psychopathic, mental or paranoid imbalance ... Yes, it is possible. But has it ever been, or has it ever been? And why? Nobody talks about it and the "healthy ones" have other things to worry about ...

The solution has already been given in this forum in the thread the secrets to become centenary ...

No, the society is very sick and it is the political elites that must be changed, but it will not be easy ... Maybe the citizens have to change themselves first ...

[nlc]

This post has me paired some research and I came across this:
http://www.eclaireco.org/poidsetat

Excellent article!

[Obamot]

He is right on some points But I see a cream pie ....

Look here instead:
http://www.eclaireco.org/fr/CriseGrecque2010

Not a single allusion to the fact that if the states got into debt, it's because they lent to the private banks in 2008, so that they rebuild a health. From this point of view, eminent Swiss economists (and God knows I love them ...) are formal: the sovereign debt crisis is a continuation of the 2007 / 2008 crisis ...

Not a word either on the cultural differences between the countries farther south VS the countries of the north ... Yet the North lives thanks to the help of the resources of the south ... Look again for the mistake! This "market economy", rather we should baptize "market predation" definitely wants everything: butter, butter money, debt milk and interests of high delay when the slag can not repay your debts because he has the nerve to raise his "old-fashioned" cows on a family farm!

Frankly they are shameful these greek! They need a "can help"European to convert the artisanal farms into industrial agro-food complex ... (Bein yes, it must be paid back"can help"... etc) And stop producing us the tasty olive oil consumed in the north and paid to the raz des paquerettes, to become poppy cultivation. We are so bad in our skin in the north that we are scooping joints! [irony mode: OFF]

Nah but frankly, I swear! Open your eyes a little ... "Technical" reasoning has its limit. They are, moreover, legitimate only if the mechanisms they apply are exercised in a strict equitable sharing of resources in international trade ... which is far from being the case!

I would like to see these financiers in the fields, to see the working conditions of the farm workers, to see at what price the merchandise is shamefully bought and at what astronomical price all that is resold ... in the north!

It requires a complete rebalancing of the world of work in the primary and secondary sectors (the tertiary sector is big enough to fend for itself) so that the principle offer VS request or (r) established in a fair theoretical model - not that simply pumping the wealth of states "cow to milk" by paying their cucumber peanut - and only then there we could talk "of market economy"(Ditto for mining resources, energy, tourism ... in short ALL the sectors) and only then, one could really apply the principles which are supposed to govern it intrinsically and ideally.

[Philippe Schutt]

Agree on the global principle, but in Greece you have to look at the incomes of civil servants, that's where the rub is.
http://fr.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110722004521AA6lOA2
Generally speaking, working cheaper ends up paying off, as shown by Asian countries or Turkey.

[sen-no-sen]

Beautiful analysis Obamot, however, I share somewhat the opinion of nlc.
The principle of a universal dividend amounts in a way to returning the national profits to its citizens, like the bonus of participation in a company, paid to its employees? Is not it?

No, or I misunderstood.
The universal dividend replaces ALL state aid.
According to the principle described, you receive from birth 1 / 2 dividend until your majority, and then the full dividend.
AND THAT'S ALL

This is an attractive version, but there are several, this is the case in Alaska, with an allocation (Alaska Permanent Fund Corp. created in 1976) based on the mining and oil revenues of the region. loot the more you win!)
The latter looks more like a "bonus", and does not allow an individual to live ($ 1200 / year depending on the years).

There are also universal dividend projects based on growth (growth dividend), but this is still more of a bonus logic than universal income.

The question to ask is how much, how, and what will it work ???

[swift2540]

This is an attractive version, but there are several, this is the case in Alaska, with an allocation (Alaska Permanent Fund Corp. created in 1976) based on the mining and oil revenues of the region. loot the more you win!)
The latter looks more like a "bonus", and does not allow an individual to live ($ 1200 / year depending on the years).

It is not interesting because not sustainable and too weak.

There are also universal dividend projects based on growth (growth dividend), but this is still more of a bonus logic than universal income.

Here again it is not sustainable.

The question to ask is how much, how, and what will it work ???

Exactly. And I'm not smart enough to answer everything.
How much: the movie talks about 1000 € / month. The poverty line in Belgium is ~ 900 € / month currently.
http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique/article/617240/un-belge-sur-sept-vit-sous-le-seuil-de-pauvrete.html
how to: simply distribute. With the remarks above.
Would it work ???
There is the question. The film speaks (of memory) of 30% of salary in less (for all), to reduce the employers expenses and increase of vat to compensate.
If you take the total of the current expenses (allocations, pensions, 30% of salaries civil servants, and other aids) and you distribute on the number of inhabitant, it would give how much for each one?