Roll with cheaper natural gas

[chatelot16]

the energy to compress the methane at 200 bar is not negligible, but is not huge either ... even if the compressor was operated by a methane burner engine we would lose only a reasonable part of the methane

of course if there is photovoltaic electricity available it is better to use it to run the compressor, that wasting the methane

the small dive compressor could be used with methane, but it is too big flow, it should be smaller

a solution to make it smaller is the hydraulic accumulator with bladder: methane on one side of the bladder: oil on the other side ... finally the viscosity of the oil makes poor performance in the hydraulic pump

best solution with water and a kercher style high pressure pump

return to the origin of the hydraulics when the hydraulic press walked with water!

[I Citro]

of course, if the electricity required for compression comes from nuclear power plant, or heat, but if it comes from PV or wind, the balance sheet is not the same ....
My idea is to compress the purified biogas, with solar electricity when I'm overproduction ...
At noon in the summer, my batteries are charged to 100%, I cut and ready cut and split wood with electric tools, but after ???? , I still have a lot of electricity that I can store !!!
fewer use it to produce the hydrogen by electrolysis, or compress biogas available (exes summer), rendering it usable later ..... (electrogene gas group Gas mower for cutting MO, etc.)
The, the overall balance is posistif, even taking into account the energy balance of the production of PV (hespel report).

Let's resume.
- 1 / Do you already produce biogas, if so, how do you store it?
If you have biogas, the simplest and fuel with a generator that will recharge an electric car.
- 2 / What global balance do you speak? Environmental balance ?, energy efficiency?
- Yes, it is better to use energy from renewable sources (biomass, waste, solar, ...) rather than fossil and releasing CO2 buried millions of years ago which allowed the humanity of the day ...
- But we must make the most efficient possible, otherwise the price of investment and the amount of energy that will ultimately available, will be almost zero ...

I am very puzzled when performance of a project like this... However, it should work because there is a strong trend (and needs) that can make it profitable on a large scale ...

For an individual, it is necessary to define the quantity of energy to store, and over what period ...
- Either wants to produce enough energy during 6 months to hold the next 6 months, and then the investment is colossal, unless it is able to reproduce the work of a Jean-Luc PERRIER, which is not easy enough ...

- Either we have modest means and we do something simpler and considerably more effective. It should be known that to manufacture the equivalent of a single liter of fuel (10kWh), it will 4 spend more energy in the best case, 40kWh ...
So in summer, 60m² of solar panels would be needed to hope to manufacture the compressed hydrogen equivalent of only 1 liter of fossil fuel. For a car, a hydrogen tank of an acceptable volume, 300 bar barely offer 200km autonomy, to go further, US prototypes use compressed hydrogen to 700bar, the yield then collapses considerably ...
So by remaining "reasonable", ie being able to do 200km maximum with H2 at 200bar, it would be necessary to have 400kWh that could produce, on a beautiful summer day, a beautiful field of photovoltaic panels of surface of 600m² ...
At the current price, this should represent 150.000 200.000 €
And I do not count the infrastructure ...

But this ridiculous sum, that you can divide by 2 if you do not need to roll every day ... Is nothing next to what will have to spend to electrolyze, compress and store hydrogen. .

With 40m ² of photovoltaic panels, less than 30.000 € you will produce by beautiful summer days 30kWh is enough to recharge an electric car able to browse 200km like the BLUECAR of BOLLORE.
But the offer in electric cars has not stopped widening since the excellent MIA made in France from 10.000 €
to the fabulous TESLA S that offers up to 500km of autonomy and Porsche performance, the livability of a luxurious H-segment sedan and the comfort of a Rolls, from 60.000 €.
I had the privilege of trying it, it is STUFFING ...

[swallowtail]

good evening C16
diving compressors actually have a mini flow of
3 to 6 m3 / h, which generates an instantaneous power needed of about 2,5kw (that's too much bcp)
I had actually thought of compressor type karcher (piston and turntable), I think we can reach 150Bars max.Question flow is better, but should reduce it by decreasing the rpm?
Side compressor fridge, I have not yet found the flow, but max pressure of the order of 60bars.
The annual CH4 flight to be compressed would be about 100m3 / 200m3, ie about 0,5m3 / day on 4 hours of sunshine or 0,12m3 / h ....

or roughly a max flow 0,5m3 / h to 200bars ....
here are some details.
swallowtail

[I Citro]

I had actually thought of compressor type karcher, I think we can reach 150Bars max.Question flow is better, but should reduce it by decreasing the rpm?

Karcher type high pressure cleaners are found with different kinds of pumps in all kinds of materials (bronze and ceramic piston models are common). The pressure range varies from less than 100bar to more than 170bar for pro models.
My Karcher (consumer model) consumes 2200W (2,2kW) and only delivers 0,5m3 / h to only 130bar ...
Far from the pressure needed and it would take 22 hours to fill a tank of 11m3 ...

Given the pressure, the autonomy should not exceed 100km for an electricity consumption of 22x2,2 = 48kWh ...
What to charge and roll an electric car during 250km

When I tell you that running on gas consumes more electricity than driving in an electric car ...
The gas car is more nuclear than the electric car.

[chatelot16]

when I say karcher, I have no action at karcher ... there is any kind of pressure washer

100 or 150 bar is the normal pressure when running at high speed, but it is well sealed piston pumps, turning slowly to reduce the dynamic effort can be higher pressure ... so no problem for 200bar

the methanizer methane is storable at atmospheric pressure in a gasometer or a soft bag

the compression of this methane is one means among others of using electric energy in rab when there is sun

but there is not only the compressor, there is the chemical purification of the methane so as not to rust and explode the bottle at 200bar

it is not essential to go up to 200 bar! for a lawn mower we can settle for 10bar with a big tank and a low autonomy ... but it does not matter the autonomy if it is only to mow its garden and that one has the filling station at home

for 10 bar a compressed air compressor does the trick ... or even better a compressor compressor more waterproof

see also new transparent fiberglass butane bottle, less susceptible to corrosion than steel bottles

all calculated, a lawn mower consumes a small proportion of the methane produced by what it mows! yield better than a sheep ... except that the mower is less digestible in mechoui

[chatelot16]

refrigerator compressor 60 bar? maximum one day or you're lucky

I used the maximum of which was 40 bar ... but for a long time you have to be satisfied with a lot less: it's ok to inflate propane cylinder whose operating pressure is 15bar

high-pressure cleaners do not perform well because they run too fast to be small and light: turning more slowly makes them better in performance

it is not necessary to pass the methane in the water pump it would not support the compression fast in one stage

you need a water bladder system that compresses the gas gently and lets the heat out

do not start from atmospheric pressure, but do a first compression stage at 10bar

yes it is a gas plant!

[chatelot16]

I had actually thought of compressor type karcher, I think we can reach 150Bars max.Question flow is better, but should reduce it by decreasing the rpm?

Karcher type high pressure cleaners are found with different kinds of pumps in all kinds of materials (bronze and ceramic piston models are common). The pressure range varies from less than 100bar to more than 170bar for pro models.
My Karcher (consumer model) consumes 2200W (2,2kW) and only delivers 0,5m3 / h to only 130bar ...
Far from the pressure needed and it would take 22 hours to fill a tank of 11m3 ...

it is not so simple

when we talk about gas flow, we talk about air pressure flow! the karcher which inflates a bladder accumulator will consume a very weak power at the beginning of the compression or the pressure is weak ... it is only at the end where it pumps to 200bar, with a flow of gas 200fois weak than the flow at atmospheric pressure

and with a first stage of compression at 10 bar the karcher of your example will compress the 11m3 in rather 2,2 hour, consuming its full power only in the end of compression of the accumulator

the bladder sytem can have a good performance when everything is optimized: it is more bulky than a piston compressor has 4 stage like dive compressor

[I Citro]

Indeed, it becomes a sacred "gas factory".
For the compressed volume, you think to reach 0,5m3 / h ...
It seems to me now very optimistic ...

[swallowtail]

hello citro
we are not quite on the same wavelength, do you think?
your "little calculation" on H2 is very interesting, but the H2 sector for an individual is very complex and expensive.
I quoted the electrolysis as info, not at all as a project ....

On the other hand, the daily 400kwh that you quote or 600m2 PV are very theoretical, because in a global approach to autonomy (electricity, water, hot water, heating, kitchen garden .....) the 200km are certainly not every day but all 2 weeks is about 10000km / year!
it gives time to produce / compress
swallowtail

that said, a neighbor has installed 1500m2 PV this winter ..... there are some who we can

The idea of ​​the project is simply to try to combine the surplus electricity available, and the biogas through a self-built installation.
The production of energy on a "large scale", therefore its centralization, and therefore its transport, largely undermines its overall output, not to mention the dependence it creates. This is especially the direction in which I do not want to go !

As for porshe perf, comfort of rolls, and others, I leave them willingly to the consumers, because my utility lpg all uses (mobile workshop / camper / ULM transport, etc) suits me perfectly, and I will change when I would have found one that is bi energy GAZ / electric and that I can recharge autonomously.

But we are moving away from immediate concerns, namely:

how to compress purified biogas at 200bar to the ryhtme of 0,5m3 / h with solar electricity !!!

[I Citro]

If you target a maximum of 10.000km / year and judges that 150m² of solar panels can suffice. This will only 45.000 € for panels.

I agree with you for the vehicle. I drove LPG before going to the electric 75 representing% of 40.000km year that has traveled my home in 2012. For the 10.000km I've done on gas, an old 8 minivan serves me as a family car, tows the trailer, carries my tools and will be used for learning to drive my eldest soon.
For the perfs, it also passed me, and I would be satisfied with a MIA as habitable as my 106 magré a lower length of 1 m and especially with its consumption of 150Wh / km when my old 106 electric consumes 200Wh / km.

Before thinking of recharging autonomously, did you evaluate your biogas production and the number of virtual kilometers it would allow to travel.