MCE-5, the VCR-i engine mounted in a Peugeot 407

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micdhi
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by micdhi » 10/08/10, 23:56

oiseautempete wrote:On cars the best compromise is the 3 cylinders, which explains the multiplication of this config on cars: good torque, not too much vibration, not too much friction, good power, nice noise.
About three-cylinder, have you ever heard of a Triumph Trident or BSA rocket 3 engine (it was the same engine): beautiful to cry ...


good evening.
yes indeed the three cylinders are preferred, for a good cyclic balancing therefore little vibration and noise more than sympathetic.
here a video of a MV AGUSTA but beware it is a replica but what a replica 18 months of work and more than 1100 hours, when the video and the brilliance I never tire of hearing it.
it reminds me of the true of agostini.

http://www.moto-station.com/article2199 ... lica-.html

and brilliantly I loved the 350 benelli by pasolini (a 4 cylinder)
"" a pack of rabid dogs barking "" to look like these three-cylinder motorcycles since there was the triumph, the BSA, the Susuki, gt 750, the kawa H2 750 I bought in 1971 a 500 Kawasaki the mach III 3 2 stroke 3 cylinder, carburetor but still 60hp drum brakes all the same question brio it was not the top, but its moved ....... from memory 6750 fr.
for cars there was daihatsu which had released a 3 cylinder semi 2 stroke 900cc, high pressure common rail, turbo and compressor (because the semi 2 stroke is not self aspirating)
and about brio and two stroke the detroit diesel have in my opinion
a brilliant out of the ordinary it smokes and it does not stop accelerating .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1XbZYJwsaA

good night .
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by oiseautempete » 11/08/10, 08:53

micdhi wrote:and about brio and two stroke the detroit diesel have in my opinion
a brilliant out of the ordinary it smokes and it does not stop accelerating .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1XbZYJwsaA



Sound level, 2-stroke diesel engines are misleading, when turning at 2500tr they roar as if they were turning at 5000 ... : Cheesy:
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Re: MCE-5, the VCR-i engine mounted in a Peugeot 407




by Capt_Maloche » 25/08/10, 13:21

Woodcutter wrote:The MCE-5 company exhibited in Geneva its VCRi engine, finally out of its "concept" phase, in a 407 box.

On this link, a video report that I found very interesting:
http://www.turbo.fr/actualite-automobil ... iable-mce/

...


Very nice
the return of gasoline vehicles with a couple of trucks :D

How soon should we see them on the market?
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by oiseautempete » 25/08/10, 16:47

Ah that, I have no idea, nothing filters at the moment, but we are announcing a skewer of new products at PSA for 2012 ... will the MCE-5 be in the pile? It is desirable!
What slows down is I think industrialization, because on this fairly revolutionary engine in its kinematics, most of the parts are very different from those of a conventional engine, which requires time to adapt the fleet of machines machining and processes ... and large investments, the crisis did not speed things up ...
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by Remundo » 19/02/11, 11:29

Subject unearthing.

L'opinion of Jean Claude Lefeuvre on the MCE5 process, and more generally the VCR processes.

Who joins mine ...

@+
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by Lefeuvre » 21/02/11, 00:40

Remundo wrote:Subject unearthing.

L'opinion of Jean Claude Lefeuvre on the MCE5 process, and more generally the VCR processes.

Who joins mine ...

@+


Thank you for the Remundo info, indeed, perhaps it would be wise to have this message on this subject.

By tradition and in particular in France there is mistrust with regard to an innovation which would question an established system. Industrialists and financiers seldom scient the branch on which they are installed even if a major innovation comes to present a general economic interest because it is much more lucrative to manufacture mountains of pistons, connecting rods, crankshafts, cylinder heads, etc. than machines comprising few components and 10 times cheaper.
These industrialists are therefore reluctant to embark on new technologies which they are wary of and which could present chances of random success, particularly if we take the example of Citroën for the Wankel engine around the 1970s.
On the other hand, these same manufacturers can pursue without taking into account the sophistication of existing engines to insidiously stimulate their customers.
In the example, the pinnacle is reached with the adoption of the concept Mce5 VCR (variable compression ratio) planned (perhaps) on engines of French firms while VCR concepts much less sophisticated (eccentric on crankshaft bearings, or engine block in 2 removable parts) have already been made by several engine manufacturers but ultimately abandoned due to performance not up to the additional cost generated by the concepts.
On the Mce5, 4 additional pistons are added to actuate the VCR mechanism which also has a very complex control servo.
It is therefore useless to specify that the increase in mass and volume of the engines can include this concept which paradoxically uses (barbaric term) the “down sizing” which consists in force-feeding an engine of smaller displacement, therefore normally lighter, for obtain the same power as a larger displacement engine thanks to a modern double-stage multi-fin turbo-compressor, the supercharging of which is ensured in particular by electronically-controlled adjustable fins.
This choice lets perceive that there is whole antinomy by adopting the VCR (variable compression rate) which is supposed to reduce consumption whereas simultaneously is used a turbo-compressor which, him, it is very greedy in fuel because it is it's no secret that the fueling of a gasoline engine considerably increases consumption compared to the naturally aspirated engine due to an imperative reduction in TC to avoid detonation and the drop in torque that the Turbo generates by braking the gases exhaust.
When you imagine the cost of a double-stage turbo-compressor which is probably as high, in its salt, as a “radial turbine as standard, no need to think a lot to understand what the price of the vehicle with the concept will be. , as some say: sometimes we fall into delirium.
On the other hand the interest of the turbo is major and indisputable on the diesel which do not undergo a disturbance of the gas column due to the suction flap of the petrol engines which creates a depression or suction braking the piston and thus reducing the torque when are at low load.
Indeed, on diesel there is always complete filling of the cylinder; consequently the air compressed by the turbo exerts a favorable thrust on the piston which increases all the more the torque of the diesel engine whereas one finds oneself conversely on the petrol engine which in addition is already limited to 10 in its compression ratio due to the detonation phenomenon.
Of course, the designers of the Mce5 pride themselves on the concept of being able to lower the volumetric ratio to 6,5 so as to allow better force-feeding the engine and obtain high torque and power at low revs, a ploy especially intended to impress the layman who is unaware that with a turbo-compressed engine one can obtain higher powers. at 150hp / l for decades, they were also used a lot in Formula1 around the 1970s.
The vehicle using the concept will probably interest a limited clientele, not caring about the financial aspect but especially fond of originality and sensations.

It therefore appears that the Mce5 solution intended to allow savings to be made both for the construction of the engines and for the reduction of their consumption is not the most convincing due to cheaper and less complex choices from other firms.

Points seemingly debatable of the Mce5 concept:

1 / complexity of the link mechanism with racks, intermediate oscillating toothed wheel whose high mass can only encourage to reduce the engine speed.
2 / production of 8 cylinders and 8 pistons instead of 4 on the conventional engine.
3 / larger and heavier engine than a conventional engine of the same displacement.
4 / very specific and expensive operations of forging, stamping, machining, rectification and special heat treatments of the elements of the link mechanism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEtm2y1yXnI&NR=1
Only the Vtec engine (Honda patent) and a few other almost similar systems have made it possible to achieve very significant reductions in consumption for more than 20 years.
Its very simple principle consists (via a device associated with the camshaft) in allowing the closing of the intake valves to be delayed in order to keep only the optimized quantity of air necessary for mixing, the excess air not necessary (at low load) being released just before closing the intake valves.

The Vtec principle therefore makes it possible to dispense for the most part with the throttle valve or intake flap mentioned above in order to reduce the phenomenon of suction generating an increase in consumption.
My vehicle with the Honda 16v Vetec engine consumes about 15% less than those with conventional engines. However, to obtain optimum consumption reductions it would be interesting to associate the Vtec principle with the VCR. It seems that this has not yet been attempted.

If we look at the charts of gasoline engines with reduced consumption, turbo-compressed engines do not appear there.

Using a turbo-compressor to reduce the displacement seems to be heresy.
In my opinion, to considerably reduce consumption, we must do the opposite, that is to say increase the cubic capacity by passing for example from 1,5l to 2,5l to finally obtain, thanks to the Vtec system, a partial filling of the cylinders, in other words, in this case, the volume of 2500cm3 would only be filled at 1500cm3 at TC10 for a prolonged expansion rate, over 2500cm3, which would become approx. equal to 17.
According to this configuration, substantial reduction in consumption can be achieved without real additional manufacturing cost.

Another fairly well-known process, Lokheed's "Turbo-compund", makes it possible to recover losses from the exhaust and reduce consumption by more than 10%. Its principle has also been successfully adopted for a few years on SCANIA and VOLVO trucks.
The fairly simple system consists in adopting an exhaust turbo, the shaft of which will be connected, via a variator and a gear reduction gear to the crankshaft or other engine shaft.
http://www.routiers.com/sejtbases/routi ... scania.pdf
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micdhi
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by micdhi » 21/02/11, 21:26

Lefeuvre wrote:Using a turbo-compressor to reduce the displacement seems to be heresy.
In my opinion, to considerably reduce consumption, we must do the opposite, that is to say increase the cubic capacity by passing for example from 1,5l to 2,5l to finally obtain, thanks to the Vtec system, a partial filling of the cylinders, in other words, in this case, the volume of 2500cm3 would only be filled at 1500cm3 at TC10 for a prolonged expansion rate, over 2500cm3, which would become approx. equal to 17.
According to this configuration, substantial reduction in consumption can be achieved without real additional manufacturing cost.

good evening.
absolutely agree with everything you said about MCE5.
the process you propose above is interesting but it exists.
the extended trigger is mounted on the toyota prius, (and others) in fact the MILLER cycle (which some also calls ATKINSON wrong)
on the prius the intake valves have a delay in closing, they close when the pistons are raised in compression. therefore less compressed volume compared to the initial displacement and a relaxation during the combustion necessarily prolonged.
but in my opinion this prolonged relaxation is only interesting from a certain engine speed because before this speed the filling is not complete.
for this reason FIAT after studying and building a similar to CAMLESS, gave up (not reliable enough) and they produced the MULTIAIR.
intake valves hydraulically actuated and managed by solenoid valves. both in opening when closing and in opening quantity

http://www.cartech.fr/news/le-moteur-mu ... 387685.htm

WITH this system they can do very well, a variation of the closure depending on an engine speed. the progressive MILLER cycle based on actual filling.

about honda, they adopted the real ATKINSON CYCLE (with 2 connecting rods) but for engines of the generator type,
continuous regime.

http://www.auto-innovations.com/actualite/1183.html

for downsising:
don't forget that they will be direct petrol injection, and can be with hybrid turbo = turbo powered by the exhaust and electric motor (which becomes generator at high thermal speed and motor at low thermal speed) it is simpler than '' a variable turbo. and it already exists on two heat engines.


http://zico10.e-monsite.com/rubrique,do ... 07582.html

cordially
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Re: MCE-5, the VCR-i engine mounted in a Peugeot 407




by Christophe » 26/05/16, 17:59

Any info or news on this French invention?
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Re: MCE-5, the VCR-i engine mounted in a Peugeot 407




by Capt_Maloche » 26/05/16, 23:03

Hula!
topic unearthing :-)
it is still up to date?
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"Consumption is similar to a search consolation, a way to fill a growing existential void. With, the key, a lot of frustration and a little guilt, increasing the environmental awareness." (Gérard Mermet)
OUCH, OUILLE, OUCH, AAHH! ^ _ ^
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Re: MCE-5, the VCR-i engine mounted in a Peugeot 407




by Christophe » 26/05/16, 23:05

Well ... it was a good idea and there were means of development at the time ... hence my question ... where is it?

ps: have you seen the new Maloche site? Try to post a comment :)
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