water doping attempt by pantone process

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
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Cuicui
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by Cuicui » 11/08/09, 15:19

pb2487 wrote: we are talking about the "pantone" type plasma reactor for a diesel engine and the desired aim is to reduce the consumption of diesel or oil (replace by a certain quantity of water) giving the same power (or greater). Which is to say: improve engine performance.

"Plasma" reactor? : Shock: : Shock: : Shock: The goal is effectively to increase the engine's efficiency by promoting more suitable combustion, by reducing unburnt fuel and, consequently, by polluting less.
The Chinese invest where there is a market. The day millions of consumers want to equip their cars, there is no doubt that the Chinese will flood the market. But as long as the Gillier-Pantone remains confidential and requires a lot of time and effort for installation and adjustment, there will not be many amateurs to buy this hardware, except the farmers who use a lot of fuel and who are DIYers by necessity. But these, like many other amateurs, prefer to build their system themselves with inexpensive recuperation materials.
Last edited by Cuicui the 11 / 08 / 09, 15: 49, 3 edited once.
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Christophe
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by Christophe » 11/08/09, 15:26

A) pb2487, I will not answer you again until you have read ("looked" it is NOT enough) in detail and understood these different links ... If it's fuzzy in your head, it's because you are mistaken for SOURCES of info! Because here we NEVER talked about a plasma reactor (or it was denied afterwards).

You should start here: definition of pantone engine

Otherwise it's too easy to tell and distribute salads for bigger than you when you don't know the subject!

B) NO, NO AND NO !! Increasing the power of an engine does not increase its efficiency !! (at least not directly because the 2 are still linked but I will not go into details because I think you do not have the level ...)

Engine efficiency in% (equivalent to specific consumption = g / cv.h) and power density or specific (in cv / L of displacement) are completely different things.

If you assimilate the 2, I recommend 2, 3 things:

a) you stop talking about engine (and by the same to take us for idiots)
b) you take engine lessons (with the net it's easy but must be read)
c) stop reading autoplus and watching turbo (because bcp of daily output parliament instead of specific power)

In fact it is better that you remain silent (I weigh my words) on the subject of water doping for a while (as soon as you start reading the articles) because there, you really pollute, but really, the forum... to mix everything up! And you do more wrong with doping than anything else ... but it may be your "mission" .... :|
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by Other » 11/08/09, 15:50

Hello

Let it be clear, we are talking about the "pantone" type plasma reactor for diesel engines and the desired goal is to reduce the consumption of diesel or oil (replace by a certain quantity of water) giving the same power (or upper). Which is to say: improve engine performance.

In addition, for me, SUPERPOWER as you say about petrol engines, that means improved performance. (read backwards, it comes down to saying lower consumption)


I don't know if you noticed a few experimenters talking about plasma, personally I don't have a laboratory to check the plasama ?? magnetism and the other things that are told on the net

tests are done full to full, with simple temperature measurements, water consumption, etc.
the other studies I suppose that the big engine manufacturers have checked everything, then question them they will tell you ...

As for the gain of power without economy and without overconsumption compared to the original engine, it is enough to increase the water consumption and you have an overtorque
when I walk at 100% frying oil I increase the water consumption to 1.8 liters per 100km
When I walk in diesel to have a better economy I walk at 1,2 liters of water per 100km

To date I find that you ask a lot of questions and that you do not bring much for those who have montages
you probably manage to discourage those who want to make montages ..
I think you are not even interested or able to make a simple assembly on a mower engine to check, you prefer to snoop around here and criticize it, something you do not know.
Could you tell us about the set-up you saw and how many km did it, as well as the figures, the type of vehicle and the data?

Andre
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pb2487
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ENERGY EFFICIENCY




by pb2487 » 11/08/09, 16:50

Christophe wrote:A) pb2487, I will not answer you again until you have read ("looked" it is NOT enough) in detail and understood these different links ... If it's fuzzy in your head, it's because you are mistaken for SOURCES of info! Because here we NEVER talked about a plasma reactor (or it was denied afterwards).
You should start here: definition of pantone engine
Otherwise it's too easy to tell and distribute salads for bigger than you when you don't know the subject!

It's your opinion. That said, I promise you, I read all the links you gave me and even more trying to understand and without apriori. Don't talk to us anymore, you're right, there's nothing to do, it's not going well (for the moment, I hope)

Christophe wrote:B) NO, NO AND NO !! Increasing the power of an engine does not increase its efficiency !! (at least not directly because the 2 are still linked but I will not go into details because I think you don't have the level...)


We will not compare our skill levels because other users will find that it turns into cockfighting (this is already the case I think).
This being concerning my level as you allow yourself to judge, at the risk of appearing pretentious (I am closer to that and because remains modest) I hold a BTS Microtechniques (now CIM). The main subject of my diploma being mechanics.
Besides, by the way, I would like to know if there are other people from similar or higher training on the mechanical side if possible?
It would allow to know and understand each other better.


By cons when I talk about performance, I'm not talking about that:
Engine efficiency in% (equivalent to specific consumption = g / cv.h) and power density or specific (in cv / L of displacement) are completely different things.

I know it's different, I mean energy efficiency (the only one that makes sense in this case in my opinion), that is:
Energy efficiency is a ratio (division) in% between the energy returned by a system and that absorbed. The various losses (heat, friction, etc.) making it never reach 1.
Or in fact for the dictionary:
The performance of a machine is the ratio between what it produced and what it had to be given.
For example, the energy efficiency of an engine is the kinetic energy (movement) obtained, compared to the electrical or chemical energy (fuel) consumed. The difference between the two is the loss of energy by friction, which produces heat (engine heating).

Or http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendement

So for a car at an established speed, if, for the same measured and fixed useful power, the consumption of fuel absorbed decreases, that is because the efficiency increases.
And conversely, if, for the same consumption consumed, the useful power increases, it is also that the efficiency increases.
In the opposite case, it decreases.
It is the energy efficiency (useful / absorbed)
Am I wrong again this time? or not?
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by Former Oceano » 11/08/09, 19:11

Precisely Christophe is a mechanical engineer.
Others also have experience in mechanics, diplomas and training in chemistry, physics, etc.

I have not yet intervened but I find that you are like the 'belin box': you open it too much to investigate without taking into account what you are told and by pushing open doors to support your other words (by example by re-explaining what a return is ...).

So I lock the subject 15 days so that you take the time to read the forum - hypotheses like that of radical chemistry of the functioning of the Pantone are proposed among other hypotheses-
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by Christophe » 27/08/09, 20:08

Topic reopened at the request of the author of this topic wazaibzh

Intervention prohibited by pb2487,5
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wazaibzh
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by wazaibzh » 27/08/09, 21:46

Hello
I deleted the "gv" which was not heating enough because it was placed outside the pot. it was cooling the steam ...
I took out the rod (after 400km) from the reactor which was like at its entrance just a thin layer of rust dust.
I tinkered with a new stainless steel rod with a diameter of 10 minutes and 180 minutes long.
I modified the outlet of the bubbler and added a "safety device" (as on the assembly of the town hall of Cahors) a drip trap so as not to flood the reactor.
After a test, warm engine a temperature measurement at the intake I painfully get 90 ° c at high speed.
I will do a consumption test soon on a typical course to see if there is an evolution or not! 8)
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by Other » 28/08/09, 03:33

Hello


I deleted the "gv" which was not heating enough because it was placed outside the pot. it was cooling the steam ...
I took out the rod (after 400km) from the reactor which was like at its entrance just a thin layer of rust dust.
I tinkered with a new stainless steel rod with a diameter of 10 minutes and 180 minutes long.


On the 300d turbo diesel
the exhaust temperature measured after the turbo after the generator and the GV it reaches 100kmh on a flat road 300 to 310c in one dimension if it opens a little more rarely it exceeds 400c
obviously it depends on the accuracy of the type K thermocouple
So no huge heat in games

In your assembly the rod of 180 mm is a good length
from 150mm to 250mm little difference on a mounting
air gap from 1mm to 1,2mm little difference
What you need to know a small air gap and a long rod reduces the passage of air is steam and this results in a drop in reactor outlet temperature (especially if it is measured on the outlet pipe)
the right way to measure the reactor outlet temperature is to place a tube inside the reactor outlet just before entering the intake manifold, although in practice this measurement is not indicative of good functioning it indicates only if one operates drowned reactor.
In my case even at idle in traffic, the temperature is always higher than 110c in driving it is around 140 c but quite variant sometimes 180c

The GV I do not design, that it is placed outside on a car it must be in the exhaust and generous dimension, it must be able to respond to demand instantly, a long descent followed by a blow of accelerator to go up it must be ready to provide ..
for the quantity of preferable steam control the quantity of water that is sent to the GV
It should not be forgotten that when there is water in the GV its temperature will remain at 100c and below.

the quick way to dry a reactor rod is to give it a good flow of air without water.
Preferable to let a higher air-to-steam ratio pass through the Reactor than too much steam.
Best to avoid drowning the stem nose.

What allows good circulation in the reactor is the depression at the outlet of the reactor, it is used for an atmospheric engine just by restricting the air filter.

the finding of a loss of power on a diesel engine is often due to the regulator (membrane which measures the depression of the intake manifold and which limits the injection of diesel for
prevent smoking
When the vehicle is stopped, it is sufficient to completely block the air intake by hand and to accelerate the engine if it does not take turns and smokes slightly. It is regulated (whereas an old diesel engine starts to smoke heavily. )

When the intake is partially flanged to force air through the reactor, there is a rise in temperature at the outlet of the reactor.
Ideally one should not restrict the intake, but organize oneself so that a good quantity of air passes through the reactor

400 km is not enough to initiate the system each time you put a new rod, or polish it must be subjected to heating (oxidation covering the deposit of water) so that the system s' generally improves near 1000km


most of the work on water doping is not the reactor but the air and steam inlet.

Andre
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wazaibzh
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by wazaibzh » 28/08/09, 12:49

Hello
thank you very much André for this clear and precise information! it will help me to develop the editing 8)
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by wazaibzh » 17/09/09, 18:48

Hello
I'm still in the rod break-in period but that doesn't prevent me from making some modifications to improve the assembly ...
I removed the drip trap and which in my opinion should cool the steam came out of the bubbler and added a faucet grid at the outlet of the bubbler (which I modified the output) and it seems to work.
I made temperature measurements, the probes are placed 40 cm after the reactor just before admission (through the transparent plastic tube). it is not the best place but it would be necessary to remove the exhaust line and have the adequate probe.
hot engine with steam I get 79 ° c at 110km / h and 83 ° c at 120km / h it's not huge! without steam the temperature drops a few degrees and rises with steam. As soon as I slow down the temperature drops to 50 ° C and goes up with the engine speed. to reach these temperatures I replaced the a.with and the restriction collar.
water consumption is very low because I assess it at 20cl per hundred
I had to go to the pump and I found an average consumption (without with) of 5,3 l in mixed course and not necessarily economical. I'm waiting to run in a little more and I'm doing a test course.
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