3th Newton's Law

[ptrem]

Two objects acting on each other accelerate in opposite directions.
gold:
Take the case of two (positively) charged particles of respective charges Q1 and Q2, moving with a velocity V1 and V2 with convergent and perpendicular trajectories. The initial position of Q1 is out of phase so that Q1 does not collide with Q2 but passes behind it.
Look carefully at the animation above. It is found that there is no magnetic field along the trajectory of the particle Q1. Let's look at what happens when the Q1 particle comes near the Q2 particle (last step of the animation):

There is no magnetic field in the Q1 axis, so Q2 is only subject to the Coulomb electrostatic force produced by the Q1 electric field,

On the other hand, Q1 is under the influence of the magnetic field produced by Q2. In this case, there are 2 forces present: the electrostatic force produced by the Q2 electric field and the Lorentz magnetic force produced by its own displacement in the magnetic field of Q2.

The electric forces of Coulomb are equal and opposite, they verify the 3ieme principle of Newton, against there is only a magnetic force of Lorentz on Q1 and no magnetic force on Q2.

Here we have a force of ACTION WITHOUT REACTION Force ... In this case, the 3ieme principle of Newton is not verified here.

The center of mass of Q1 and Q2 particles accelerates in a preferred direction without there being any external force on the system ...

Note: To be in agreement with Newton's 3ieme principle, it would be necessary to take into account the moments of the magnetic and electric fields.

Reference documents :

"Richard Feynman's Physics Course" - Electromagnetism 2 - InterEditions Collection

Physics in MP - PC 1re Year - Volume 3 - Electricity (electromagnetism) by Pierre Alais and Michel Hulin - Armand Colin Bookstore.
...............
my question is:
is there a self-propelled man-made machine that does not satisfy Newton's 3rd law "action / reaction"
Because it has been written that the "Lifter" operating in a vacuum, undergoes a residual force of a few milli newtons, and therefore what is the reaction force? ?
good day ptrem

[elephant]

I see you have good readings, but where do you want to go?
Let us not forget, however, that when we enter particle physics, we leave the field of application of Newtonian physics, which remains roughly "good old mechanics"

[Remundo]

Hello everyone,

I can not find the animation?

Moreover, the electric forces verify the principle of reciprocal actions ... They are perfectly integrated with classical physics. Magnetic forces too beforehand.

From there, 2 isolated and interacting particles are forced to accelerate in opposite directions.

I do say acceleratebecause the vector tangent to velocity (acceleration) is not the vector tangent to the trajectory (velocity) ...

@+

[ptrem]

Hello everyone,

I can not find the animation?
..........
here is the link
http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/lorentz/indexfr.htm
Moreover, the electric forces verify the principle of reciprocal actions ... They are perfectly integrated with classical physics. Magnetic forces too beforehand.

From there, 2 isolated and interacting particles are forced to accelerate in opposite directions.

I do say acceleratebecause the vector tangent to velocity (acceleration) is not the vector tangent to the trajectory (velocity) ...

@+

[Remundo]

A little intuition ...

In classical mechanics, we do not take into account magnetic field correction terms, of the order of (v / c) ^ 2, which appear in restricted relativity.

This is where the micro-difference must come from ... and "the absence of reaction = to action". Because I imagine that you do not correct the magnetic field in your reasoning.

I can tell you anyway that your business, if you want to make an engine, does not work ... Even if there is something to exploit, it is worth the force x (v / c) ^ 2. In order of magnitude, a factor of 10 ^ (- 17) x v².

at usual speeds (40 m / s = 130 km / h), it's nothing at all ...

In my opinion, in restricted relativity, this contradiction must disappear and the magnetic forces perfectly verify the principle of reciprocal actions.

To dig so for who loves the brain juice

[Hydraxon]

I do not think there were contradictions in Newton's laws applied to electromagnetism without RR. And then it's not really particle physics because here we treat particles as if they were marbles. Moreover, you can re-read his text by mentally replacing the particles with charged balls, slow and heavy enough to be in a Newtonian physics situation.

On the other hand, if the velocities are not relativistic, the propagation of the magnetic field is in instantaneous comparison, and therefore the magnetic field produced by the lattice particle applies to the other as well.

And let us not forget that the 3e law is a law of conservation of the resultant or kinetics. One and the other, of course. We do not violate her like that.

[Tagor]

A little intuition ...

In classical mechanics, we do not take into account magnetic field correction terms, of the order of (v / c) ^ 2, which appear in restricted relativity.

in the case of the lifter the force results from a shape asymmetry
it is not a relativistic calculation that will account for that ...

on the other hand on the microscopic scale we can be done
intervene the forces of casimir, which in this case, would appear
a cavity on one side of the lifter? but this casimir effect is it
perfectly documented?
for now no one has advanced theory on the lifter in the void, someone wants to get started?

[Remundo]

I did a little bit of calculation in Newtonian mechanics and electrostatic / magnetostatic.

Indeed, it remains a residual force.

I find, subject to a small miscalculation ....

Fresidual = u12 vect ( C1 vect C2) μ0 / 4 / Pi / (P1P2) ²

where
- u12 is a unit vector directed from 1 to 2:
- C1,C2 =Q1V1, Q2V2
- vect = vector product
- P1P2 distance between 2 particles

It is proportional to Q1 Q2 v1 v2 μ0 / 4 / Pi / (P1P2) ^ 2

magnitude:
Q1Q2 = 10 ^ (- 38) Coulomb²

μ0 / 4Pi = 10 ^ (- 7)

v1 v2 = 10 ^ 6 (m / s) ² (taking 1000 m / s)

1 / (P1P2) ^ 2 = 10 ^ (- 18) / m² (taking 1 nm distance)

Appraisal: 10 ^ (- 38-7 + 6 + 18) = 10 ^ (- 21) Newton

You see. Even a fly would laugh

At higher speeds (starting from 30 000 km / s), it is necessary to apply the PFD in relativistic kinematics and the relativistic field processors ...

And even staying in Newtonian mechanics, it would be necessary to refine taking into account the propagation time of the field ... (the potentials delayed ... in (tr / c) ... who does not want it

[Remundo]

Hi Tagor!

It's been a long time

on the other hand on the microscopic scale we can be done
intervene the forces of casimir, which in this case, would appear
a cavity on one side of the lifter? but this casimir effect is it
perfectly documented?
for now no one has advanced theory on the lifter in the void, someone wants to get started?

I doubt that the Casimir effect applies to point particles. It is rather between hyper close-ups (less than the wavelength of photons). In addition, it requires the theory of quantum electrodynamics, which synthesizes the Maxwell equations, relativistic kinematics and quantum physics. It's Richard Feynmann, I think, who put it all together well ... Chapeau l'artiste

A very nice area in which I am far from being a specialist ... I admit it modestly.

Here, it makes me see that the link of this forum tip on a publication of Naudin, a real size, not at all sulphurous like guy

I think at the moment he is employed by the army where it is really good, namely model aircraft, for military drones and surveillance.

[Hydraxon]

I think I found the missing strength. Moving a charged particle in a magnetic field creates a voltage. And this tension exerts an electric force on the charged particles.