It would be interesting to understand the real physical mechanism by physics measurements allowing to clarify among the possible mechanisms.
One possible is a more regular combustion giving a relaxation by pushing the piston more reversible and closer to the reversible thermodynamic cycle of Carnot with maximum output, T more uniform, lower in certain points, etc.
In this case a reading of pressure and T in the cylinder (with spark plug with sensors?) Can give indications.
It is also useful to be able to measure this yield at almost every stroke of the piston with force, speed and flow sensors and not after 100 km on the road.
The difficulty is that the least measure requires investigation equipment that is fairly complex to build and expensive.
Since the motors operate irreversibly far from Carnot's ideal performance, it is possible to improve by getting closer to it.
If far from the optimum possible, any change not studied can improve.
I don't get the impression that the builders do a lot of this type of fundamental study.
The reactions of Picolo, who seems to work in such a design office, seem to show it, with a priori very contemptuous and with basic errors that block all in-depth physical studies without serious errors, having understood through the Carnot cycle.
If some manufacturers make this picolo error, I remain frightened and everything is wrong.
Renault patent, water injection and engine GP
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Christophe
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Sorry for the length of this message but it is fundamental! It is the synthesis of what we can say, in 2011, about doping (I would edit it or copy it maybe later)
Absolutely but this has been done by N people for years, we have already tried to synthesize everything N times but not obvious ... for example in this subject initiated by Maloche: https://www.econologie.com/forums/dopage-mot ... t4883.html
So I force myself to do it again (because it's you and because clowns like picolo I have my slap) I took almost 1 hour to write this answer!
So I wonder if, this time, we were doing the POINT TOGETHER DEFINITIVELY via A .PDF written in COMMON ??
Here it could be the 1st official publication of the association: https://www.econologie.com/forums/associatio ... t8916.html (still in neutral for info ... there are only 6 members who have contributed !!)
Here is a reminder of the most notable effects and information of water doping (with or without an ionization reactor):
1) H2 creation reaction with carbon soot from unburnt with water: C + H20O + heat = CO + H2
Consequence: very good improvement in combustion, on the one hand because we reduce the soot in the cycle, on the other hand thanks to the H2 created which burns extremely well!
Developed in detail here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/dopage-mot ... t4883.html
2) increased octane number (in petrol known to all rally drivers or water injection kits exist for turbo petrol)
https://www.econologie.com/l-injection-d ... -3094.html
3) more uniform thrust on the piston = piston which remains more in the axis = better sealing, less knocking, this had been measured by modal analysis (do research on the site, everything is there) !!! The piston and cylinder wear less and so does the oil
Since: less soot (see 1)) + less blowby (piston less inclined) = cleaner oil longer
4) ionization of humid air at reactor outlet (if present) = improvement of combustion reactions (empirically verified by the fact that acid water, which ionizes better, gives better results). See radical reaction
https://www.econologie.com/ionisation-de ... -3324.html
5) longer relaxation work (thanks to excess steam) = increased torque (observed on almost all doping). It is as if we "virtually" increased the piston stroke!
Here is even a diagram which illustrates this (I am persuaded that the diagram of a motor doped with water approaches the 2nd diagram below)
https://www.econologie.com/forums/le-fonctio ... t2356.html (it's Post Ité in this sub forum https://www.econologie.com/forums/comprehens ... -vf44.html For years!)
6) better fuel volatility / dispersion thanks to water
7) Thermolysis of water (less efficient, in my opinion, than the reaction with carbon from 1))
https://www.econologie.com/hypothese-de- ... -2915.html
And I add a hypothesis that just comes to mind, linked to the point
8) better combustion by better heat exchange in the room (lair is better conductor than dry air!) linked to point 6)
Here is an article that says this but otherwise: https://www.econologie.com/synthese-des- ... -3589.html
Conclusion:
Doping with water is more than probably a "big mix" of all these effects which each have more or less overall effect on the efficiency of the engine!
It should be borne in mind that the more the engine is loaded, the more the doping efficiency is important (difference in consumption up to 40-50% true but you really have to "nag" on the engine, pipes red! There is surely a really interesting effect, maybe in the reactor but few users get there, it would be an effect 9) that I do not know and that I did not mention above because still quite hypothetical: gas cavitation (cold fusion, sonoluminesence ??) in the reactor !! See here https://www.econologie.com/forums/etude-de-t ... t4944.html
This is why the generator results are low or zero (just as on engine bench that does not load enough engine) because there is always a reserve of engine power compared to the generator mounted on it! Many experimenters have come to terms with doping because of this!
Conversely, below a certain load the effect can be zero (in town without climbs, drop doping, do eco-driving). The increase of the power of the engines and the repression with respect to the speed also makes that one can note less and less effect of a doping!
This has long been attributed to the heat of the reactor, I think we were mistaken: for me, in 2011, it is the heat of the combustion chamber which is more influential than that of the reactor. the 2 are obviously linked ... especially if you have an 9 effect)
Hypnow in his book (see https://www.econologie.com/forums/histoire-d ... 10570.html ) has put a diagram which explains this (without distinguishing T ° reactor or chamber). I will put it further!
In the end, giving the respective importance of each of these effects is impossible given our means, only an engine BE could do it ... and again it is not even at all that it is within their reach ...
Engine manufacturers know all this! To say that they do not know that would be to really take them for idiots (some ingés or decision makers in BE are real heads of mules, without any open-mindedness, well formatted as it should be, picolo is perhaps an example (? ), but they are probably not idiots !!).
A car manufacturer could develop ultra-efficient water doping in a few weeks, why is it not done? Ask them, in my opinion, they have (for the moment?) No interest !! But they are groping about doing it with the EGR, which is a kind of "autogenous" water doping ...
ps: I really want to make a copy / pasted of this message in a new subject more visible ... yes? No?
dedeleco wrote:It would be interesting to understand the real physical mechanism by physics measurements allowing to clarify among the possible mechanisms.
Absolutely but this has been done by N people for years, we have already tried to synthesize everything N times but not obvious ... for example in this subject initiated by Maloche: https://www.econologie.com/forums/dopage-mot ... t4883.html
So I force myself to do it again (because it's you and because clowns like picolo I have my slap) I took almost 1 hour to write this answer!
So I wonder if, this time, we were doing the POINT TOGETHER DEFINITIVELY via A .PDF written in COMMON ??
Here it could be the 1st official publication of the association: https://www.econologie.com/forums/associatio ... t8916.html (still in neutral for info ... there are only 6 members who have contributed !!)
Here is a reminder of the most notable effects and information of water doping (with or without an ionization reactor):
1) H2 creation reaction with carbon soot from unburnt with water: C + H20O + heat = CO + H2
Consequence: very good improvement in combustion, on the one hand because we reduce the soot in the cycle, on the other hand thanks to the H2 created which burns extremely well!
Developed in detail here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/dopage-mot ... t4883.html
2) increased octane number (in petrol known to all rally drivers or water injection kits exist for turbo petrol)
https://www.econologie.com/l-injection-d ... -3094.html
3) more uniform thrust on the piston = piston which remains more in the axis = better sealing, less knocking, this had been measured by modal analysis (do research on the site, everything is there) !!! The piston and cylinder wear less and so does the oil
Since: less soot (see 1)) + less blowby (piston less inclined) = cleaner oil longer
4) ionization of humid air at reactor outlet (if present) = improvement of combustion reactions (empirically verified by the fact that acid water, which ionizes better, gives better results). See radical reaction
https://www.econologie.com/ionisation-de ... -3324.html
5) longer relaxation work (thanks to excess steam) = increased torque (observed on almost all doping). It is as if we "virtually" increased the piston stroke!
Here is even a diagram which illustrates this (I am persuaded that the diagram of a motor doped with water approaches the 2nd diagram below)
https://www.econologie.com/forums/le-fonctio ... t2356.html (it's Post Ité in this sub forum https://www.econologie.com/forums/comprehens ... -vf44.html For years!)
6) better fuel volatility / dispersion thanks to water
7) Thermolysis of water (less efficient, in my opinion, than the reaction with carbon from 1))
https://www.econologie.com/hypothese-de- ... -2915.html
And I add a hypothesis that just comes to mind, linked to the point
8) better combustion by better heat exchange in the room (lair is better conductor than dry air!) linked to point 6)
Here is an article that says this but otherwise: https://www.econologie.com/synthese-des- ... -3589.html
Conclusion:
Doping with water is more than probably a "big mix" of all these effects which each have more or less overall effect on the efficiency of the engine!
It should be borne in mind that the more the engine is loaded, the more the doping efficiency is important (difference in consumption up to 40-50% true but you really have to "nag" on the engine, pipes red! There is surely a really interesting effect, maybe in the reactor but few users get there, it would be an effect 9) that I do not know and that I did not mention above because still quite hypothetical: gas cavitation (cold fusion, sonoluminesence ??) in the reactor !! See here https://www.econologie.com/forums/etude-de-t ... t4944.html
This is why the generator results are low or zero (just as on engine bench that does not load enough engine) because there is always a reserve of engine power compared to the generator mounted on it! Many experimenters have come to terms with doping because of this!
Conversely, below a certain load the effect can be zero (in town without climbs, drop doping, do eco-driving). The increase of the power of the engines and the repression with respect to the speed also makes that one can note less and less effect of a doping!
This has long been attributed to the heat of the reactor, I think we were mistaken: for me, in 2011, it is the heat of the combustion chamber which is more influential than that of the reactor. the 2 are obviously linked ... especially if you have an 9 effect)
Hypnow in his book (see https://www.econologie.com/forums/histoire-d ... 10570.html ) has put a diagram which explains this (without distinguishing T ° reactor or chamber). I will put it further!
In the end, giving the respective importance of each of these effects is impossible given our means, only an engine BE could do it ... and again it is not even at all that it is within their reach ...
dedeleco wrote:I don't get the impression that the builders do a lot of this type of fundamental study.
The reactions of Picolo, who seems to work in such a design office, seem to show it, with a priori very contemptuous and with basic errors that block all in-depth physical studies without serious errors, having understood through the Carnot cycle.
If some manufacturers make this picolo error, I remain frightened and everything is wrong.
Engine manufacturers know all this! To say that they do not know that would be to really take them for idiots (some ingés or decision makers in BE are real heads of mules, without any open-mindedness, well formatted as it should be, picolo is perhaps an example (? ), but they are probably not idiots !!).
A car manufacturer could develop ultra-efficient water doping in a few weeks, why is it not done? Ask them, in my opinion, they have (for the moment?) No interest !! But they are groping about doing it with the EGR, which is a kind of "autogenous" water doping ...
ps: I really want to make a copy / pasted of this message in a new subject more visible ... yes? No?
Last edited by Christophe the 18 / 05 / 11, 23: 05, 1 edited once.
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Christophe
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Alain G wrote:I believe the builders reject the water for much simpler reasons than the plot but rather for a question of corrosion and freezing
Corrosion no: there are already "tons of water" that pass through an exhaust pipe: 1 L of fuel burnt = 1 L of water formed!
So freezing yes would already be a more credible "excuse".
The fact of having to fill a second tank too ... (ah traditions).
On the other hand if they wanted (and this is what they will do one day if they decide to develop doping ... patents have already been filed), nothing, technologically, prevents the water from condensing exhaust (that which comes from the combustion of petroleum) thus to function "internally" without having recourse to a tank to fill!
There would be a small buffer tank which will be emptied in the event of frost.
After on the car everything is a question (for them) of commercial gains compared to investment and additional cost!
In the current state of what we know, I don't know if water doping (for reasons of engine load for example) has a future in new cars ...
But the manufacturers surely know things which one does not know ... Let us imagine, if it exists, that they can control this famous cavitation?
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Christophe
I was talking about the internal corrosion of the engine in the high cylinder which can reduce the life of the engine but the gel would be the most credible for its use!
Given my experience in vacuum pumps, when I vacuum the water in a vacuum packaging machine I could see that the cold boiling is different depending on the place or I draw it from various customers with the same empty on my gauge, it can become an engine management problem depending on the water used!
So not sure that recovering from the exhaust is the solution!
I was talking about the internal corrosion of the engine in the high cylinder which can reduce the life of the engine but the gel would be the most credible for its use!
Given my experience in vacuum pumps, when I vacuum the water in a vacuum packaging machine I could see that the cold boiling is different depending on the place or I draw it from various customers with the same empty on my gauge, it can become an engine management problem depending on the water used!
So not sure that recovering from the exhaust is the solution!
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Stepping behind sometimes can strengthen friendship.
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
When asked, they say it doesn't work ...Christophe wrote:A car manufacturer could develop high performance water doping in a few weeks why not? Ask them, in my opinion, they have no interest for the moment !!
When you see all the technologies, simple (eg: egr) or gas plant (eg: hybrid), that they have used to develop their engine over time, frankly, there is something to ask questions. ...
The EGR valve recirculates part of the exhaust gas at low speed to reduce the combustion temperature and therefore limit NOx emissions.Christophe wrote:But they are groping about doing it with the EGR, which is a kind of "autogenous" water doping ...
No effect on performance ...
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The truth is what follows from the observation of facts. "
The truth is what follows from the observation of facts. "
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Christophe
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Alain G wrote:I was talking about the internal corrosion of the engine in the high cylinder which can reduce the engine life
Well, me too: the only chance that this thing will happen is that an engine will be left abandoned for years outside (even in a hangar). A few months if it is in the rain, may be enough to gun it down. Especially in a marine atmosphere.
When you inject water: the engine therefore runs hot, no condensation and above all it drains water! Liquid water would have to come into the cylinder when the engine is stopped ... but you also risk hydraulic tightening ... then the corrosion next to it is blank I think
Alain G wrote:Given my experience in vacuum pumps, when I vacuum the water in a vacuum packaging machine I could see that the cold boiling is different depending on the place or I draw it from various customers with the same empty on my gauge, it can become an engine management problem depending on the water used!
Yes the property of water (especially minerals but also ph, rh ...) must play in it (to be checked ...). Salt water boils earlier (or later? Damn I have a doubt there).
But don't I see the connection with water doping?
Alain G wrote:So not sure that recovering from the exhaust is the solution!
Yes, but patents have been applied in this direction! The quality of the water from the combustion of gasoline / diesel must be fairly constant in quality (polluted by various things but constant ...)
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pb2488 wrote:When asked, they say it doesn't work ...
Is that so? Source? Doesn't work according to what criteria?
Sabatier and Clerget were liars then? You know Sabatier is the engine manufacturer who gave his name to the well-known cycle ...
pb2488 wrote:The EGR valve recirculates part of the exhaust gas at low speed to reduce the combustion temperature and therefore limit NOx emissions.
No effect on performance ...
No effect??? Of course if there is an effect:
a) by injecting a neutral gas you decrease the combustion T ° = less good cycle efficiency, it's BA BA CARNOT MON CHER !!
The visible effect is that you increase the unburnt, there is more soot, unburned carbon, therefore necessarily less energy drawn from fuel for the engine cycle ...
b) the 1st EGR version (all or nothing) also degraded the performance by progressive fouling: up to gun the engine so much it was fouled !!
Suite:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/la-vanne-e ... t3958.html
c) Conversely, currently the EGR are controlled proportional and I think they are programmed to take advantage of the combustion water in certain cases!
I think so, Maloche, he is sure of it!
It is the same principle as the blue flame oil burners which loop the combustion gases!
https://www.econologie.com/forums/ameliorati ... t5172.html
That is (maybe) why doping with water (direct) does not interest them (yet?) ...
ps: you put your photo in the trombi?
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Christophe wrote:
But don't I see the connection with water doping?
I'm talking mainly about the oxygen contained in the water which varies greatly when subjected to vacuum, this oxygen helps by increasing the pressure by thermodynamics and also helps as fuel!
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Stepping behind sometimes can strengthen friendship.
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
Yes. A negative effect ...Christophe wrote:
??? Source?Christophe wrote:c) Conversely, currently the EGR are controlled proportional and I think they are programmed to take advantage of the combustion water in certain cases!
cad? I do not see where is the why?Christophe wrote:That is (maybe) why doping with water (direct) does not interest them (yet?) ...
A simple thing, which makes pollute less and consume less ... look for the error ...
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The truth is what follows from the observation of facts. "
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pb2488 wrote:Yes. A negative effect ...
Ah ah ah, nice pirouette, negative is it none? Go circulate for this time ...
pb2488 wrote:??? Source?Christophe wrote:c) Conversely, currently the EGR are controlled proportional and I think they are programmed to take advantage of the combustion water in certain cases!
For proportional piloting you will find this in specialized auto sites ... google is your friend
Euro 5 = proportional pilot valve
For the "I think" it's just a hypothesis by analogy to the blue flame assembly + "common sense" ...
It was Maloche who convinced me, I think he is right.
pb2488 wrote:cad? I do not see where is the why?
A simple thing, which makes pollute less and consume less ... look for the error ...
Because the re-injection of combustion vapor via EGR currently satisfies them ... and above all that it is much easier to achieve for them than a water injection system ... but they are interested in it !!
You should hang out more http://fr.espacenet.com/ you would find renault and psa patents on water injection ...
So start with this one FR2870892 A1: https://www.econologie.com/brevet-renaul ... -3771.html
And another for the road: https://www.econologie.com/brevet-renaul ... -3435.html
What am i reading You read like I think ...
Well they want to inject water (so misted) in the EGR ... rooooh rascals !!!
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