Article econology AUTOBIO on doping in the water!

[Flytox]

Well article, well built and without pellets ....
Finally an article that does not make the horses ) on the head.

[pb2488]

Regarding the shift to the auto industry, are there really "dozens of other examples" that prove that the industry is interested?
If at all, a patent filed and unused serves as any scientific proof?
Because since 10-15 years we hear about the system, the manufacturer, there is not much concrete. Outside, they never stop working and investing in improving the performance of their engines.
Cdlt

[Christophe]

Regarding the shift to the auto industry, are there really "dozens of other examples" that prove that the industry is interested?

You take your hands and you will check: www.espacenet.ch
You will easily find 20 patents on water injection between 1900 and 2000 ...

Aquazol and gecam are concrete industrial examples ... there are probably some patents ...

Then we can always spend our time trying to destroy a scientific truth that bothers ...

If at all, a patent filed and unused serves as any scientific proof?

Yes it is not a proof but it is not the subject.

Now you insult a little the engineering offices of the big builder by saying this ...

Read the patent renault cited in the article: https://www.econologie.com/brevet-renaul ... -3435.html

Because since 10-15 years we hear about the system, the manufacturer, there is not much concrete. Outside, they never stop working and investing in improving the performance of their engines.
Cdlt

I see that you have not read or not understood the article: it is since 100 years and not 15 ...

Currently if the manufacturers are satisfied by controlling the EGR valve to obtain a "poor man" water injection ... then no "external" water injection is necessary for them. It costs them less and they are happy with the desired results.

[pb2488]

Aquazol and gecam are concrete industrial examples ... there are probably some patents ...

The aquazole (water-diesel emulsion) lowered the emissions of certain pollutants but this to the detriment of power and consumption:

Because of the presence of water, the Aquazole is less energetic than diesel and causes a drop in engine power and an overconsumption of the order of 8 12%. http://www.ademe.fr/paca/Pdf/fiche5-solutions-depollution.pdf

Today, we know how to perform better and cheaper in terms of depollution.

Then we can always spend our time trying to destroy a scientific truth that bothers ...

Scientific truth that disturbs ???
First: Sorry, but I do not see how it's a scientific truth because its operating principle is based only on hypotheses never scientifically demonstrated !!!
Second: I do not see what's bothering me ..... ???? on the contrary.

Currently if the manufacturers are satisfied by controlling the EGR valve to obtain a "poor man" water injection ... then no "external" water injection is necessary for them. It costs them less and they are happy with the desired results.

I do not understand the comparison made between the EGR and the water doping to explain the non-democratization of the latter?
According to these followers, the doping allows a depollution spectacular (dixit) and a consumption gain of the order of 30% . Moreover, with a cost of a hundred euros (if industrial version) or DIY without great resources, the montages type Gillier-pantone would they really the injection of "rich" water, especially with the amortization achievable by the fuel gain.
The EGR valve, for its part, only aims to reduce NOx emissions by reducing the maximum combustion temperature via exhaust gas recirculation. It only works by cycle at certain speeds (low loads, low revs ...) and if it remains locked in the open position, there is a big loss of power. http://www.problemauto.com/?63/La-vanne-EGR
I do not see how it is "doping", at the limit it is rather clamping ...

Doping with water .... 100 years since its discovery (10-15 years we hear about pantone) !!! still ..., and still not much of widespread on the market of the engine (automobile, public transport, agriculture, road transport, public works, etc ...). Are engine engineers so bad that they can not reproduce the seemingly conclusive experiences of some enthusiasts? ...
Cdlt

[Remundo]

Pb2488 is emptying?

We do not know very well the gains of small water injections. On the other hand the depollution of the gases is proved.

Personally, I think water gives free radicals HO * and H * that have a role in the degradation of hydrocarbon chains, especially when the engine is running at full load.

But all that is chemical thermokinetics difficult to access ...

There is also something else, water recovers some of the calories usually lost in the exhaust and in the crankcase: the engine runs in a combined cycle Diesel / Rankine or gasoline / Rankine which theoretically improves the thermodynamic efficiency.

I think that studies on the subject carried out on modern power benches are sleeping wisely.

Moreover Paul Pantone discredited the field. This has hindered objective and scientific or technical research on the injections of small quantities water, taken in France by the farmer Gillier on his tractor ... then by large-scale experiments such as aquazole.

[Flytox]

Hello pb2488

Aquazol and gecam are concrete industrial examples ... there are probably some patents ...

The aquazole (water-diesel emulsion) lowered the emissions of certain pollutants but this to the detriment of power and consumption:

Due to the presence of water, the Aquazole is less energetic than diesel and causes a drop in engine power and a overconsumption in the order of 8 to 12%. http://www.ademe.fr/paca/Pdf/fiche5-solutions-depollution.pdf

Today, we know how to perform better and cheaper in terms of depollution.

ADEME also wrote:

FUEL TESTING
Aquazole ® ON BUS FLEET

. 2 Reduction of pollutant emissions compared to commercial diesel emissions

The environmental benefit is significant for heavy-duty engines, especially the older MAN SC10 engines, which are used on city buses.

It is found, by measurements carried out on standardized cycles (European cycle R49-13 modes, AUTONAT cycle, AQA-RATP cycle, RVI cycle, etc ...), for a fuel EEG compared with the diesel entering in the formulation of the EEG:

- a reduction of NOx emissions from 15 to 30%;
- a reduction of fumes and soot from 30 to 80%;
- a reduction of particulate emissions from 10 to 80%.

These results will be refined and optimized based on the composition of the EEG, notammant of the water content of the sulfur content of diesel fuels, depending also on future types and new engine emissions control technologies. Then the results should be confirmed by durability tests of performance obtained.

1. 3 Reducing energy consumption

Compared to the "diesel" base, there is a slight tendency to reduce energy consumption by approximately 2%, which can be explained by a more complete combustion of the hydrocarbons in the presence of water and thus leading to a slight improvement in efficiency.

Your message is as clear as that of the ADEME and can be with the same rear thoughts .....

[Christophe]

Tiring the pb ...

+ 1 Flytox and here is the source: http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.f ... e_aqua.htm so a .gouv.fr (just in case the pb would treat us as a fababulator ...)

[pb2488]

+ 1 Flytox and here is the source: http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.f ... e_aqua.htm so a .gouv.fr (just in case the pb would treat us as a fababulator ...)

The study I quote is quite clear:
http://www.ademe.fr/paca/Pdf/fiche5-solutions-depollution.pdf
http://www.senat.fr/rap/l97-4391/l97-439172.html
http://www.plexiglass.fr/fiches-bricolage/aquazole.html
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mulsion_eau_gazole
In addition to the beneficial effects on certain pollutants, it is well established that aquazole increases consumption and decreases potency. Nowadays, new technologies have appeared, cheaper and more efficient. In addition, if you do a complete assessment, you may have to consider the energy needed to make this fuel.
Otherwise, for about twenty years that the product is on the market, if it was the panacea, the aquazole would have spread.

I'm surprised you're giving more credit to a government message from 1999 rather than a more recent ademe study (2002).
Cdlt

[Remundo]

Hi Pb,

still need to be a little rigorous ...

If you take the conso aquazole, of course it is higher than that of pure diesel ... there is 10% water in, the energy content per liter of fuel is lower.

But if you consider the pure diesel fuel used for the same bus route, the conso has dropped slightly

1. 3 Reducing energy consumption

Related to the "diesel" base, there is a slight tendency to reduce the energy consumption of about 2%, explained by a more complete combustion of hydrocarbons in the presence of water and thus leading to a slight performance improvement.

source Government
In addition to that, it has been said, the depollution is very significant, and this is the essential in urban areas.

As for the gray energy of the aquazole, it must not be well raised with regard to the energy released by its combustion ...

What's wrong with Aquazole is its instability because it's a water / oil emulsion ... and the water does not mix well with the oil.

I think that make the mixture water / oil , in the cylinder in operation is better and allows to feed at any fuel depot and water tap (but preferably without too much limestone / magnesium).

@+

[Former Oceano]

It takes enough energy to produce the free radicals and these can quickly cause radical reactions leading by electron rearrangement (Mitchell) to break long carbon chains.

See here : https://www.econologie.com/wiki-moteur-p ... dicalaires

In addition the formation of ketones, alcohols or aldehydes (incorporation of .OH) will increase the octane number.