Project heating wood and solar heating

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
bernardd
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by bernardd » 24/02/11, 17:39

mathieu444 wrote:This is exactly what I would like. We heat first with the solar circuit which can be lukewarm in winter then if necessary by the stove circuit. If the temperature is not sufficient, there would be the auxiliary electric boiler (the aim is to use it as little as possible).


One of the points to understand is that the solar collector must be hotter than the circulating water.

Hence the interest:
- to use vacuum collectors and not flat collectors, because their better insulation makes it possible to have warmer water in winter. I look forward to vacuum sensors with parabolic concentrators in fresnel lens, to reach 100 degrees in winter.
- to put several reservoirs in parallel on the solar circuit. In addition to the fact that simple tanks are not expensive (large recovery water heaters or used stainless steel tanks), it is better to "open" the coolest tanks when the temperature of the sensors is low, and to circulate the tanks. hotter when the sensors are very hot.

Am I clear?
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mathieu444
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by mathieu444 » 24/02/11, 20:11

Thank you for your precious help ...

For solar storage, I planned to put a 1000L "cubis" and insulate it of course ... Is this sufficient?

For the sensors, I will study the vacuum sensors since you say that it is more efficient ...

Goods.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 24/02/11, 23:21

It is necessary to inquire a lot, because the vacuum collectors are better for a high final temperature but a little less good in yield for low temperatures and you have to look and read everything that has been written on econology and elsewhere, yield curves and other details, by checking how it is calculated because the cylindrical vacuum sensors occupy only part of the surface due to their spacing.
http://www.apper-solaire.org/?Capteurs
In addition, the vacuum may not be preserved forever, and then the yield will decrease over time.
All is depending on the quality of often Chinese sensors, which you have to be wary of sometimes.

One possibility is to have a nice surface of flat collectors which preheat and the vacuum collectors finish heating for DHW ??

For DHW or heating the floor to different T the optimums are not the same and therefore the sensors can be different.
It is worth seeing the yield curves per m2 occupied by the possible collectors, in general the simple plan is better for less than 40 ° C of difference and the vacuum better above.
In summer a pipe under plastic sheet will heat well, while in winter nothing at all.
see the curves in the middle of the page:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/?Capteurs
A project quite similar to yours in addition:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Capt ... _Plans.pdf
Considering the input surfaces of the 2 sensor fields, it was expected that the performance
of the field of vacuum tube collectors would be greater than that of flat collectors and this all
especially during cold periods.
But during the winter season, it was found that the plane collector field produced at least
as far as the field of vacuum tube collectors.
This is all the more surprising given the theoretical and nominal performances displayed by
vacuum tube collectors.

It depends if you often have frost or not?
The ECS has a lot of practical experience in econology and elsewhere with traps to avoid.

Floor heating requires much more collector area at lower temperatures and is less common, therefore with less practical experience. It takes a maximum of floor area to be able to heat with water at the minimum T coming from solar collectors whose surface is fixed by their performance (a little better than under vacuum), the power required and the actual insolation in winter of your corner (different depending on the top or bottom of the mountain, or valley bottom too foggy, of your orientation of sensors, preferably south, and your optimum sensor is different). In addition, the orientation for winter is not the same as in summer (if you want to change it following the sun?).
The sensor with cylindrical parabolic concentrator or Fresnel lens is good, if in a fairly continental climate, in winter you have beautiful periods of clear and clear sun which is then concentrated and heats well for the DHW (by orienting the sensors well to follow the sun), but if you too often have a pale sun through a valley bottom fog that the sun never drives away in winter, it is better to have flat sensors which better capture the diffuse light to heat the floor heating a little.
In the fairly mountainous Limousin, I have the impression that the local climate is quite variable in winter depending on the locations.

Also to study the problem of adjustable flow to keep the optimal T which seems essential but neglected:
http://kheops.champs.cstb.fr/dddsm/Docu ... rI0097.pdf


Document yourself thoroughly by reading everything you can, because we are not going to rewrite everything that is written on econology and on the internet !!

Look at all the coherent projects documented on econology and on the internet.
read thoroughly and assimilate the whole site, entirely everything:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/

For example, this remarkable solar achievement uses flat collectors and is interesting to look at to know the characteristics of a coherent whole:
http://www.dlsc.ca/solar_collect.htm
http://www.dlsc.ca/how.htm
their solar collectors with 15m2 per house, insufficient in winter (much colder in Canada at 1050m altitude more north than Limousin)
http://www.enerworks.com/
http://www.enerworks.com/Pdf/New_Market ... ks_low.pdf

is a complete functional example similar to yours (if we forget underground storage)

Right now on A2 sent special traps and traps of solar and heating !!
In particular photovoltaics with a little shade of pine trees reduced to zero !!! (functioning too rudimentary)
Or leaks in the recessed roof !!
or wind turbine that explodes or costs more to maintain than the electricity produced.
And if we take a pro, interest in guessing well if it will not go bankrupt during installation, what happened to one of my sons and who with the help of his defense and recourse home insurance was able to recover his payments.
So for your house take good insurance, defense and recourse and that damage compulsory work.
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by mathieu444 » 25/02/11, 10:02

Thank you for these tips and all this documentation. I'm going to read it all with interest.
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by Obamot » 25/02/11, 11:33

Very good heat capture on the roof .... but then if we invest in it: why boudioux deprive itself of the "best" that goes with it?

manet42 wrote:there are actually too many in the summer - and before you store it to heat the water in the winter.
OUF! already a solar installation is "unprofitable" so with storage in the ground! unimaginable for an individual even when digging the ground oneself (exercise good for health). It would take two or three lives.
I suppose it is a proposition to dedicate?
You know my position ... Zapping, so I did not read his messages.

But it is true that cold winters and with sun become rare compared to my memories (soon 69 years : Lol: ) where sometimes we had -19 ° / -20 °.

JC

I cannot understand the logic of such reasoning!

How can we envisage geothermal energy which requires drilling (~ € 20 in total, surface installation included) and not study the possibility of storage in the ground by the same route?
Storage in the ground also makes it possible not to "exhaust" a possible geothermal vein and allows you to do without it completely if you go down between -200m and -300m depending on the terrain. It is not me who says it but my colleagues from EPFZ ...>, that I tend to believe!

Therefore no need to spend on heating, or in a heavy installation: costly in investment and credit amortization and maintenance (~ 4000 € per year ... when we counted everything in the quota ...)

Why use a wooden floor for underfloor heating? The wooden floor is by nature not very conductive. In any case, this type of construction requires a special cement screed. So it's not optimal.

Done the calculation, but I start from the same principle as Manet42, unnecessary redundancy and a lot of superfluity:
- a heating slab in special concrete, it's not cheap!
- why invest in an electric boiler (a return by nature if mediocre).
- what would be a log stove for circulating water? To duplicate the electric?
- why think of geothermal energy when the storage of heat in the ground is much more efficient?
- why even install a heating when the Minergie-P houses only need an input of 10W, while any person gives off 30W with the heat of their own body ...

... which will certainly cost you more than the € 20 for heat storage in the ground, as Dedelco rightly suggests. Since the amount invested, will pay for itself, because it will not consume fossil fuel and will cost almost nothing in electricity or maintenance.

This especially as the risk of making a mistake in a “heavy installation” is great, and the traps (voluntary or not) or even scams are numerous even by companies that are well established (impossible to outwit if you don't is not a specialist). There this problem is eliminated, since there is no / more investment in this area!

In energy storage in the ground, this is replaced by .... a valve and a temperature regulator ... : Cheesy: which is required in any installation anyway! Your "thermal balloon" is then de facto in the depths ...

At worst, what can drop as "heavy" equipment is an electric pump for less than € 1000 ... :-)

manet42 wrote:Why make it complicated when it can be simple ?

JC
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 25/02/11, 13:33

Solar is quite new, with lots of variations and progress and therefore it is difficult to make the best choice, so it is good to look at all the achievements, possibilities and difficulties.
Even with pros often new and inexperienced, there are mistakes and bankruptcies.
The excess summer heat with sensors capable of causing big problems if not well planned can be stored in the earth of a Canadian well to recover part of it in winter if well designed.
Logically, it is the best ecological solution, but in France nobody knows or has experience.
So this is technical research and creativity inspired by foreign achievements and it is better to have a good experience of simpler technical achievements.
The big difficulty is the price of drilling, which is very variable.

However in soft ground, currently we are forced to drive deep piles which can then be used to insert water exchanger pipes to deeply heat the earth at a low additional price. This possibility of heating a pile house underground is completely overlooked.
The piles in foundations have become conventional and compulsory (after soil study) in questionable soils which give cracks if one is not used, very numerous cracks in France after various droughts.
So, then, these deep piles can be used with ordinary pipes inside to store the excess heat in summer underground !!
The difficulty is that in France, nobody has ever done that and therefore it is the total unknown for the pros who can do nothing without approval by their insurance !!
However, we can then remove any CO2 from heating in perpetuity for the price of foundations on fairly deep piles !!
I think about it because around my house, at the bottom of the valley, I have seen several pile houses built in the past.

So the best is to progressively from simple to complex, choosing the best of the different variants already done on the internet, like apper-solaire.org. very rich in simple innovations.

For example the realization of cuicui in the Vosges (also on econology), very simple seems very interesting, inexpensive, less than redoing the roof and in my opinion to be considered seriously, with variants can be inspired by other achievements on Apper.
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... 20toiture/
http://www.apper-solaire.org/?Pratique

The solar collectors can be simple and inexpensive, which makes it possible to install a large area as efficiently, and with less problems of overheating in summer.
The simplest very inexpensive, nevertheless quite effective is:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... index.html
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... 20minimal/
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... /index.htm
The advantage is that you can multiply the surface for the same price and a much better result, without regrets if a sensor is damaged.

The underground storage of principle identical to the Canadian well, simply additionally heated in summer by the sun, can be left for later, without forgetting its possibility.
His only difficulty is the price of inserting the pipes underground without stirring this earth (then much cheaper), not too difficult in not too tough soil, with an auger 5cm in diameter used for soil surveys, as I seen to do, and that can be rented to drill 25 holes.
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by Obamot » 25/02/11, 13:49

Exactly! So choose ... I would not take "innovative" drilling solutions at the moment unless they have proven themselves .... which may still take time.

Don't get me wrong: if a “classic” drilling, with classic ad hoc means, costs only ~ € 7 for ~ 000m ... Why deprive yourself of it?

It's free, but you need what you need!
The price of a heat pump with shallow boreholes will work, but will cost more! There is currently not a single shallow installation that does not require at least a heat pump OR an auxiliary heating installation. The trick of district heating, vector of surface losses, is a beautiful illusion.

Because in depth cumulated we reach the equivalent of -5m of drilling for shallow depth ... and it will still be necessary to pay them in "Hourly labor cost"... Reason why I had launched the track to encrypt that in the other thread ...

Reason why in Zürich they chose to go down to -300m. Oh yes! It will necessarily be cheaper ...

If you add the price of concrete silos and possibly that of bentonite insufflation for better thermal conduction of the fluid from the ground ... 5000m in length it makes a gigantic volume compared to 300m: 6x more!

I prefer a hole with GUARANTEED temperature at ~ 16 ° C / 18 ° C all year round ... even without insufflation of heat in the ground to which we can add "what will be stored", which will allow the temperature to rise to “European standard” type of comfort levels, because at least we have a guaranteed result whatever the context, depending on the range:
~ 16 ° C + storage = 20 ° C stable all year at least.
~ 20 ° C and more + storage = up to 80 ° C and more in the event of a geothermal deposit.

No problem.
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mathieu444
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by mathieu444 » 25/02/11, 14:15

Everything is very interesting but we go everywhere ...

I am looking for a solution to heat my house, the most economical and the most ecological possible.


We start on a heated floor (comfort).

We decided to put a wood stove for the happiness of a wood fire.

We did not want radiators (not beautiful)

After studying the energy losses, we are at 7000W, with a house of 180 m² and a large picture window of 4m80 facing due south.


With these different observations, it seemed interesting to me to "tinker" a system to recover calories in this stove as indicated on this post: https://www.econologie.com/poele-a-bois-avec-serpentin-d-eau-chaude-articles-3788.html

In addition, I possibly wanted to add solar collectors to increase the renewable (and free) energies of my house.


This is why I wanted to develop my initial diagram to transform it into something achievable and economical.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 25/02/11, 15:13

180m2 is a beautiful large house quite expensive and therefore it is better not to tinker too much by looking at the errors, hesitations and improvements made by all the others with great care, to avoid their hassles and to reinvent.

The cheapest is certainly a max of surface area of ​​cheap solar collectors, and a stove well designed according to your needs? 50cm logs? autonomy of 2h or the day, comfort ?? dirt from the ashes, comfort ?? mass or simplistic stove, good heat exchanger, etc.
An insert with exchanger has the happiness of a wood fire even more clearly visible, as I use !!

Making a list of all the possible choices is very important, otherwise insured regrets and galleys.
The cheapest is with less comfort, it depends on everyone's tastes !!

The south bay window is worth recovering its heat from the sun optimally by air circulation by watching what is being done.
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by Obamot » 25/02/11, 16:12

... well let us "tinker" : Mrgreen:
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