ITER when?

Oil, gas, coal, nuclear (PWR, EPR, hot fusion, ITER), gas and coal thermal power plants, cogeneration, tri-generation. Peakoil, depletion, economics, technologies and geopolitical strategies. Prices, pollution, economic and social costs ...
Bardal
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 509
Registration: 01/07/16, 10:41
Location: 56 and 45
x 198

Re: ITER when?




by Bardal » 16/08/19, 20:13

sicetaitsimple wrote:
bardal wrote:But, sicetaitsimple, nuclear fusion and renewable energies are not in competition ...

......................


I made it very clear
1 I did not talk about Iter
2. My questioning arose on the horizon of the XNIXXème century on the assumption that the merger would become industrial for the production of energy.

Your answer might suggest that I do not understand much about comparing cabbages and carrots, but it is next to the plate.


Do not get angry, sicetaitsimple, me either I do not speak of ITER, except to point out that the media systematically divert its objectives and its purpose. ITER is not a power plant and will never produce a single kWh.

As for knowing if in 100 years nuclear power - even if it will be fusion - will be competitive compared to renewable energies, I must admit that I have no idea. And I do not see who would be able to answer this question: no beginning of a theoretical diagram of a thermo-nuclear power plant is under study (the researchers say they cannot envisage anything before the end of the century) and the wind turbines will have known at least five generations of turbines; do we have any idea of ​​the state of the rare earths and metals resources necessary for their construction at this stage of history, of the state of humanity, of its needs ... All this completely escapes our economic analyzes, already not very reliable to predict the very near future.

On the other hand, it seems to me impossible, and moreover not at all desirable, to stop all scientific research on the structure of the atom; and I am delighted that so many countries have seen fit to invest in expensive tools to continue this research ...

NB Costly (20 billion €), it is moreover an exaggerated way of speaking: it is less than two years of public subsidies for renewable energies in France, shared between all the participating countries, and spread over 15 or 20 years . It's not expensive at all, to reproduce the sun.
1 x
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9846
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2678

Re: ITER when?




by sicetaitsimple » 16/08/19, 21:28

bardal wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:
bardal wrote:But, sicetaitsimple, nuclear fusion and renewable energies are not in competition ...

......................


I made it very clear
1 I did not talk about Iter
2. My questioning arose on the horizon of the XNIXXème century on the assumption that the merger would become industrial for the production of energy.

Your answer might suggest that I do not understand much about comparing cabbages and carrots, but it is next to the plate.


Do not get angry, sicetaitsimple, me either I do not speak of ITER, .........

..........

As for knowing if in 100 years nuclear power - even if it will be fusion - will be competitive compared to renewable energies, I must admit that I have no idea. And I do not see who would be able to answer this question: no beginning of a theoretical diagram of a thermo-nuclear power plant is under study (the researchers say they cannot envisage anything before the end of the century) and the wind turbines will have known at least five generations of turbines; do we have any idea of ​​the state of the rare earths and metals resources necessary for their construction at this stage of history, of the state of humanity, of its needs ... All this completely escapes our economic analyzes, already not very reliable to predict the very near future.


It is not getting angry to find that an answer to a question is missing the mark. On the other hand, what you have just written ("I have not the slightest idea ....") would have been perfectly admissible, because that was the question!
0 x
User avatar
Grelinette
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2007
Registration: 27/08/08, 15:42
Location: Provence
x 272

Re: ITER when?




by Grelinette » 18/08/19, 11:45

"ITER is to nuclear what concorde was to aeronautics".

I find this sentence to be fair enough.

Concord as ITER have a few things in common:

these are monumental, international, innovative and even “iconoclastic” projects with regard to habits and forecasts relating to the periods in which they develop.

Probably ITER will allow technological advances, but will the project itself be a real success with concrete and indisputable results?

The concord allowed major technological advances but very quickly showed a certain number of errors and bad anticipations in many fields: political, economic, pollution, delays, etc.

We can almost replace the Concorde today with the Airbus A380, which also turns out to be an error on the same similar points and a failure in relation to the objectives set despite recognized technological innovations ...

This perhaps raises the question of the merits of very large international technological projects.
0 x
Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
Gébé
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 361
Registration: 08/08/09, 20:02
x 65

Re: ITER when?




by Gébé » 18/08/19, 13:45

I find this comparison totally inappropriate.
Most human activity is based on the use of energy. In this area, mastering fusion would be a revolution with major geopolitical consequences.
Concorde, if it had been a success, would certainly have been a big step forward ** as had been the use of the jet propellant, but that's it. As for the A380, it's just a commercial failure as was the Velsatis for Renault; without great consequences even on the sustainability of companies.

** not even technological as you say since it is simply a supersonic plane used for the transport of passengers
3 x
Gébé
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 361
Registration: 08/08/09, 20:02
x 65

Re: ITER when?




by Gébé » 18/08/19, 16:10

Gébé wrote:
Concorde, if it had been a success, would certainly have been a great advance ** as was the use of the jet propellant

In aeronautics only
0 x
User avatar
GuyGadebois
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6532
Registration: 24/07/19, 17:58
Location: 04
x 982

Re: ITER when?




by GuyGadebois » 18/08/19, 18:31

Gébé wrote:
Gébé wrote:
Concorde, if it had been a success, would certainly have been a great advance ** as was the use of the jet propellant

In aeronautics only

And again, in the field of performance and elitism, if not, I would like someone to explain to me how Concorde was a breakthrough, since it used existing technologies.
0 x
“It is better to mobilize your intelligence on bullshit than to mobilize your bullshit on intelligent things. (J.Rouxel)
"By definition the cause is the product of the effect". (Tryphion)
"360 / 000 / 0,5 is 100 million and not 72 million" (AVC)
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9846
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2678

Re: ITER when?




by sicetaitsimple » 18/08/19, 20:19

GuyGadebois wrote:[
And again, in the field of performance and elitism, if not, I would like someone to explain to me how Concorde was a breakthrough, since it used existing technologies.


Yes, you're right, Concorde was just a DIY thing from things recovered from trash cans ......
0 x
User avatar
GuyGadebois
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6532
Registration: 24/07/19, 17:58
Location: 04
x 982

Re: ITER when?




by GuyGadebois » 18/08/19, 20:51

sicetaitsimple wrote:
GuyGadebois wrote:[
And again, in the field of performance and elitism, if not, I would like someone to explain to me how Concorde was a breakthrough, since it used existing technologies.


Yes, you're right, Concorde was just a DIY thing from things recovered from trash cans ......

Fortunately that you stick me on the left foot, that brings good luck!
0 x
“It is better to mobilize your intelligence on bullshit than to mobilize your bullshit on intelligent things. (J.Rouxel)
"By definition the cause is the product of the effect". (Tryphion)
"360 / 000 / 0,5 is 100 million and not 72 million" (AVC)
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9846
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2678

Re: ITER when?




by sicetaitsimple » 18/08/19, 21:51

To come back to the subject, the comparison introduced by Grelinette between the Concorde and nuclear fusion does not seem relevant to me, at least today.
Concorde flew for several years, rather well to my knowledge, a technical success, but it was ultimately a commercial failure, which ended following an accident certainly dramatic but which had little to do with the technology itself. Of which act.

Nuclear fusion, we are just not there and by far in terms of development.

This does not take anything away from my questions in terms of a future "competitiveness" vis-à-vis the exploitation of the various and varied effects of the fusion of the sun on our Earth compared to a fusion which would be controlled "on board" ..
0 x
User avatar
Remundo
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 16183
Registration: 15/10/07, 16:05
Location: Clermont Ferrand
x 5263

Re: ITER when?




by Remundo » 19/08/19, 00:44

this fusion technology is probably obsolete before it has even been brought to an operational stage because it is neutrogenic and does not have natural fuels on Earth.

you have to take a step and go on aneutronic and fuel fusions present on Earth: the first candidate is the Bore Hydrogen fusion ...
1 x
Image

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Go back to "Fossil energies: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 196 guests