Inevitable: The nuclear accident TV movie in France

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by Christophe » 19/11/08, 15:55

Special For Jonule :)

Risk of internal explosion in nuclear power plants: EDF can do better

RISK MANAGEMENT - Actu-Environnement.com - 19/11/2008

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As with a conventional industrial installation, the presence of flammable gases, chemicals and dust from combustible materials in nuclear installations generates risks of explosion. In pressurized water reactors, for example, the main risk of explosion is linked to the presence of hydrogen. Indeed, a pipeline brings pure hydrogen into the premises of the nuclear auxiliaries where it is injected into the primary circuit to limit corrosion.

The Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN) and the Institute for Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN) therefore carried out inspections and identified a generic maintenance defect in the pipes carrying pure hydrogen. These pipes are subject to corrosion, especially in a humid environment. These inspections also revealed deviations from the regulations applicable to equipment containing so-called "TRICE" materials (toxic, radioactive, flammable, corrosive, explosive) such as signaling and tracking faults. EDF is therefore invited to correct the anomalies detected and to better control the installations in order to maintain all the equipment involved in controlling the risks of explosion.

F. RUSSEL


http://www.actu-environnement.com/ae/ne ... _6215.php4
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by bamboo » 19/11/08, 16:56

Shouldn't industrialists (whatever they are, including EDF) be told:
If you do not respect the standards, we confiscate the tool and put it in concession at someone else's (in addition we would earn money, since the 2nd industrialist would have to pay this concession).
Of course, the employees would have to stay on the site, so that knowledge of the site and the processes would not be lost.
There would only have to be an "update" of the rules to be applied.

It would motivate them a little more, our dear industrialists : Cheesy:
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by jonule » 20/11/08, 10:10

ok, here is a "real" info as I hear it, the passages in bold to better understand the role of an independent body, yes we are still talking about the provision of information and communication:

Risk of explosion at the Cruas-Meysse nuclear power plant (Ardèche) - Press release dated November 18, 2008

The Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN) has just informed the media of the notice which it addressed on November 13, 2008 to the director of the EDF power station of Cruas-Meysse.

CRIIRAD has read the ASN documents and publishes a first level of reaction below. An in-depth analysis requires more time to obtain the necessary documents and information from the operator and the authorities.

The malfunctions highlighted at Cruas-Meysse are presented by the Nuclear Safety Authority - the authority in charge of controlling nuclear installations - as particularly serious.

According to ASN, they indeed concern a “risk of explosion” likely, moreover, “to damage elements essential to maintaining safety or to lead to a breach of containment”. The formal notice published by ASN signals poorly maintained, oxidized and corroded pipes while they are used for the transport of explosive fluids, denounces the absence of periodic checks to check their condition and identify leaks, specifies that these pipes do not appear on the plans made available to the fire departments (1) ... All this in violation of a regulations dating from 1999 (2).

In these conditions,

1. How is it that ASN granted EDF a period of 1999 years (!?) in 6 to comply
with the prescriptions of this decree?

2. How is it that after such a long period, ASN apparently contented itself with a letter from EDF stating that, with one exception (but which did not concern the risk of explosion), all of the compliance actions had been carried out and that it had still waited 2 years and 7 months to carry out an inspection intended to check whether EDF's statements were substantiated and compliance brought into effect?

3. How is it that the inspection of 25 and 26 September did not give rise to an injunction, that it took a second inspection on 24 October, then another 3 weeks for a formal notice to be sent to the operator, ie a total of one and a half additional time?

4. And how is it that the formal notice of November 13 still gives EDF a period of 3 months to comply ... with prescriptions dating from 1999?

5. And how is it that did the obligation to ensure the watertightness of pipelines carrying radioactive, corrosive, flammable or explosive materials only date from 1999? Did this obligation not exist when the 4 Cruas-Meysse reactors were commissioned in 1984 - 1985? If it existed, that means thatEDF has been operating for more than 23 years without properly controlling this key parameter and without the supervisory authorities being upset by it. If this is not the case and it was not until 1999, 15 years after start-up, that these basic but essential controls were mandatory, it is truly scandalous. We do not know which of these two options is the most worrying.

Once again, the field observations suggest a operation of the French nuclear power plant very far from the advertising discourse of operators and from a “high tech” technology subjected to draconian controls: corroded pipes, monitoring and signaling faults… one can only wonder about the operator's sense of his responsibilities. How is it that it neglects controls that are so crucial to the safety of its installation?

Obviously, at least 3 other nuclear power plants are concerned: Le Blayais in Gironde, Civaux in Vienne and Golfech in Tarn-et-Garonne. For the other nuclear installations, we are expecting: are they absent from the list because the risk of “explosion” is properly managed there… or because Has their compliance with the 1999 regulations not yet been checked?



Given the major consequences of a nuclear accident, above all in terms of health but also environmental, agricultural, tourist and economic, such serious dysfunctions should be the subject of an in-depth investigation relating to the management of the operator but also on the reliability of regulatory framework. We should wonder about the central place given to self-monitoring, on the bridges built between operators of risky activities and controllers, on the arbitration between profitability and safety ... Unfortunately, the law of June 13, 2006 organized the quasi impunity of the ASN. As for the operator, the successive deadlines for compliance speak volumes about the "rigor" of the controls to which it is subject. The law has also strictly limited, and for a long time, its responsibility in the event of an accident. It is the people who will bear the consequences, and on all levels. It is therefore in its interest to be demanding and to demand accountability for the way in which nuclear activities are managed and controlled.

(1) Fires occur regularly at nuclear sites. The fact that the emergency services do not know the location of pipes that could explode and make the situation considerably worse, suggests the worst if there is a problem. However, this is the BA BA for the management of risky sites.

(2) Decree of December 31, 1999 setting the general technical regulations intended to prevent and limit nuisance and external risks from the operation of basic nuclear installations.


Will we be content with information relayed by the media, or by an independent body such as CRIIRAD, which has been involved since 1986 in public information on nuclear energy?

here is a difference, but brief:
we still ask the question of the performance of control bodies! especially for this sensitive and fragile technology.
the passage in blue shows well how the sham lobbyist secrecy of state / transparency, voted, is organized.

so if it gets the hell out, will we be well informed, and by whom?
yet this point should have been essential, it is not.

This in fact explains all the black spots of this lobby ("lobby" because it is self-controlled and present in the state bodies).
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by Christophe » 20/11/08, 16:58

Is it really Jonule Day?

A nuclear accident simulated on Thursday at the Fessenheim power plant [18 / 11 / 08 - 16H42 - AFP]
© AFP / Archives - Olivier Morin
Click here

The Fessenheim nuclear power plant (Haut-Rhin) will simulate an accident on Thursday during an exercise which must mobilize Switzerland and Germany, the public authorities and the media, the Haut-Rhin prefecture announced on Tuesday.

This "large-scale" exercise, according to the Haut-Rhin prefecture, which takes place every three years, aims to test the alert system and crisis organization deployed in the event of a nuclear accident. .

According to a scenario not known to the participants, the accident which will be simulated "in the conditions closest to reality" will trigger the implementation of the Internal Emergency Plan (PUI) of the Fessenheim site and will allow the testing of the chain. government decisions.

The exercise, which will have no impact on the actual operation of the power plant, also aims to assess the proper functioning of the alert of the populations by siren, relations between the crisis staffs, the sheltering schoolchildren from neighboring municipalities and radioactivity measurements by specialized teams. It will also be used to test cross-border relations with Switzerland and Germany and partnerships with the various media.

The Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN), EDF, the gendarmes and firefighters of Haut-Rhin, the departmental departments concerned, the mayors of fifteen surrounding municipalities and Météo France are also involved in the exercise.

Commissioned in 1977, the Fessenheim plant is the oldest in the French nuclear fleet.

At the end of October, Swiss, German and French anti-nuclear companies seized the Council of State after the rejection by the Ministry of Ecology of an appeal requesting the final shutdown of the plant.


http://www.lesechos.fr/depeches/science ... enheim.htm
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by Former Oceano » 21/11/08, 19:56

They are going to make us fart. : Evil: With their exercises, they risk starting an unforeseen scenario and if they do not manage it correctly ...

This is what happened in Chernobyl. They had fun trying it out and it went wrong ...
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by Remundo » 21/11/08, 20:03

Of course when we play with fire, we sometimes get burned ... :?

This is nuclear fire : Idea:

Finally, I think they still take their precautions.
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by Gregconstruct » 22/11/08, 08:50

At Cherbnobyl, they wanted to see how far they could scale up the reactor. Except that when they wanted to stop the test, they had exceeded the runaway power. And BOOM !!!!

Regarding the risk of accident with reactors used in France or Belgium, it is very real but will probably not be as dramatic as Chernobyl.

What makes me say that?
There are many differences between PWR reactors (used here) and RBMK reactors (Russia). Security is also very different.
In terms of safety, the French and Belgian reactors are housed in containments (bouble in Belgium) which is not the case in Russia where they are in simple hangars.
Our reactors are equipped with a set of passive and active safety devices which do not exist in Russia!

Another major difference between the two types of reactors is the moderator. The moderator makes it possible to avoid the runaway reaction. Without this moderator, it would not be a reactor but an atomic bomb.
The moderator of the PWR reactors is water and for the RBMKs it is graphite. Graphite is flammable, not water !!!
The graphite fire allowed radioactive dust to rise higher in the atmosphere and contaminate a much larger area.

For the rest, I am not a nuclear physicist so I am silent ... : Mrgreen:

Far be it from me to take up the defense of nuclear power or to say that there are no security problems here! But I just want to show that the Russian and Franco-Belgian situations are totally different !!!
So please, let's stop saying that we are going to do a Chernobyl at home when this is not possible !!!!
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by jonule » 24/11/08, 10:15

Remundo wrote:Finally, I think they still take their precautions.

well when we see how they are pinned on non-compliant maintenance and others, there is reason to doubt!
you will tell me: you still have to be informed, don't you? -)
everyone can be subscribed to the mailing list (www.sortirdunucleaire.org).
look at the incidents of this summer at Tricastin, they had a media success, but usually when it happens the residents are not even aware! or after ...

Gregconstruct wrote:Far be it from me to take up the defense of nuclear power or to say that there are no security problems here! But I just want to show that the Russian and Franco-Belgian situations are totally different !!!
So please, let's stop saying that we are going to do a Chernobyl at home when this is not possible !!!!

yes but however when the Chernobyl cloud crossed France and sprayed us with highly radioactive particles, invisible, it did not come from France but from an Eastern country, it was simply carried by the wind ...
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by Gregconstruct » 24/11/08, 17:59

jonule wrote:
Gregconstruct wrote:Far be it from me to take up the defense of nuclear power or to say that there are no security problems here! But I just want to show that the Russian and Franco-Belgian situations are totally different !!!
So please, let's stop saying that we are going to do a Chernobyl at home when this is not possible !!!!

yes but however when the Chernobyl cloud crossed France and sprayed us with highly radioactive particles, invisible, it did not come from France but from an Eastern country, it was simply carried by the wind ...


Didn't I say that the fire of the moderator (graphite in this case) had allowed the particles to rise very high in the atmosphere?
This means that it may have contaminated a very important area.

So, I don't see the usefulness of your intervention!
It is a little easy to take the words out of their context and to appropriate the reflections that have already been made !!!

End of transmission !!!!!!!!!!!!
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by jonule » 25/11/08, 09:18

uh i think we did not catch there, gregconstruct, I do not get your comment.
far from me the idea of ​​appropriating anything, I don't see what else ... but:

I do not agree with your statement "in France we are in nuclear security so nuclear power should not be afraid" - because you speak of security - and I insisted on the fact that a nuclear incident in a foreign country will fall on the face anyway.
it is particularly to fear an incident which would not be revealed to the public, coming from another country ...
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