Lazy garden: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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GuyGadebois
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by GuyGadebois » 16/12/19, 21:07

Ahmed wrote:As I said, biochemical exchanges go both ways, this is undeniable, and the biochemical substances provided by mistletoe are complex. As in the case of the cited experiment, it is likely that the mistletoe can compensate for certain insufficiencies of the host, because unlike the vampires that you mentioned, it has no interest to exhaust too much its host to which its fate is unfailingly linked ...

Everything I've read about mistletoe is far from all "plausibility" as you say without supporting it in the slightest. As for talking about "his interest", I think that like a bunch of parasites and other viruses, "he really does not care" to kill his host, since he will reproduce fatally via the birds which disseminate him thanks to their droppings .

http://documents.irevues.inist.fr/bitst ... sequence=1
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by Ahmed » 16/12/19, 21:10

So how do you explain the result of the experience cited?
Your document seems old and from a time when utilitarianism reigned without nuances (it has beautiful remains, but it is still evolving).
Last edited by Ahmed the 16 / 12 / 19, 21: 17, 1 edited once.
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by GuyGadebois » 16/12/19, 21:12

Ahmed wrote:So how do you explain the result of the experience cited?

What experience cited? What link? Or?
"Tests have shown that a leafless tree in the middle of the growing season could very well survive ..."
We are here too far from the symbiosis!
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by Ahmed » 16/12/19, 21:33

The experience of stripping "guitars" trees had been communicated to me directly by specialists in the matter, but I found mention of it here:
More than parasitism, we can speak of osmosis between the mistletoe and its carrier tree.
In exchange for the raw sap collected by the suckers, the mistletoe returns to its host elaborate sap rich in nutritive substances which migrate in the tree.
The demonstration of this interaction was made on an apple tree carrying mistletoe to which all the leaves were cut in the spring. Then the following year, it was found that the tree was not dead and that it was again covered with leaves. Finally, for six consecutive years, the same experiment was repeated without damage to the tree. This proves that the mistletoe had managed to maintain the circulation of the sap. Not only had he not killed his host, but he had come to his aid.

What would be the symbiosis?
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by GuyGadebois » 16/12/19, 21:35

I don't know where your "experiment" * came from, but everything I found speaks of the deleterious effects of mistletoe. On the other hand, the truffle ... : Mrgreen:

* Ah yes, of a Breton actor and director follower of the druidic movement (Jean Pierre Gaillard) who talks about the magic and the virtues of the mistletoe of the oak and which mentions the survival of an apple tree without bringing anything concrete, measurable or scientific. Basically it's to die of laughter!
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by Did67 » 17/12/19, 10:34

Two or three things :

a) In the living, a strict parasite never eradicates its host. It would be his death announced!

b) But the basic scale of living things, the ultimate link, is not the individual, but the species. Such an individual may very well die - what am I saying, he MUST die. It is the question of the survival of the species that is at stake.

So mistletoe will not kill the apple tree on which it is is a possible interpretation. Doubtful to me ... (if it's a parasite)

Or the mistletoe will kill such a sick tree to finish it off and make room for another healthy apple tree to take its place is also in the logic of the living.

c) Above all, the boundary between autonomous species, parasite and symbiont is not clear. There is a kind of continuum. If sometimes it is clear (such a species is only parasitic, or strict symbiotic or autotrophic), there are plenty of intermediate situations.

One mycorrhizal fungus is a symbiont as long as the vegetable does not have enough phosphorus. But fertilize with soluble P, and it becomes parasitic from the point of view of the vegetable. Who will keep him back (or at least will no longer attract him).

Ditto for the fixing bacteria of the genus Rhizobium. In poor soil, they are welcome symbiotes for fabaceae. Who feed them, in exchange for nitrogenous substances. But let the soil get rich and they become a pest. We then find nodules that are no longer active (they are not red). The plant keeps its carbohydrates for it!

I think that for mistletoe, we are in this hemi-parasite situation. I know apple trees right next to my home that have had them for a long time. We have been there for 20 years.
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by Moindreffor » 17/12/19, 11:52

"we kiss under the mistletoe"
would we have chosen a parasite?
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by GuyGadebois » 17/12/19, 12:52

Did67 wrote:I know apple trees right next to my home that have had them for a long time. We have been there for 20 years.

Let's give the floor to Brice Hortefeux, whose absence in politics weighs so heavily: "When there is one, that's fine. It's when there are many that there are problems". : Mrgreen:
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by Ahmed » 17/12/19, 18:16

Did does well to evoke mushrooms in connection with mistletoe: what causes an "active" aversion towards the latter, it is especially that it is apparent and that it is therefore possible to intervene. It's the same with ivy, yet objectively less controversial ...
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Re: Potager lazy: questions STONES / LIERRE / CANICULE?




by GuyGadebois » 17/12/19, 19:22

Ahmed wrote: It's the same with ivy, yet objectively less controversial ...

Ivy is not a parasite.
https://cercles-naturalistes.be/wp-cont ... Hubert.pdf
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"By definition the cause is the product of the effect". (Tryphion)
"360 / 000 / 0,5 is 100 million and not 72 million" (AVC)

 


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