Hello everyone
here I am back on this fabulous forum because i will need your lights
I have already opened a previous subject concerning the connection of a boiler stove in parallel with an oil boiler
thanks to the precious looping advice that allowed me to do the installation
I am now faced as much with the problem of energy storage
I have a ROTEX tank in my possession and I would like to make it an accumulator when the heating demand is zero and the stove is working .... to then tap into ROTEX for when the stove is off
it will therefore be a dead water tank!
my question is in the design of the exchanger ???
I have stainless steel ringed diameter 20 in total 5Ometers
two solutions
1) a single exchanger from the top to the bottom of the ball which loads the ball and recovers calories
2) two exchangers: a low exchanger for charging the tank
and a high heat exchanger to recover calories from ROTEX when the stove is off.
in the first case I do not modify my installation because I have a zone valve on the heating return: heating return to the boiler or heating return to the stove.
if the VZ closes (boiler return in this case everything goes to the tank)
in the second case (double exchangers) I must add a zone valve so that the fluid circulates in one or the other of the exchangers
please tell me what you think or if there are other solutions ??
is it better 1 or 2 exchanger for the stratification of the tank?
A +
ps the diagram arrives
Buffer tank on base ROTEX
Hi mi16,
I recommend a single exchanger from top to bottom.
The same coil is used for both charging and discharging heat. It's just the direction of the flow that differs.
Take a look here:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Fiches/Ballons/Echangeurs%20instantanes%20ECS%20en%20inox%20annele%20par%20RAMSES/index.pdf
A+
I recommend a single exchanger from top to bottom.
The same coil is used for both charging and discharging heat. It's just the direction of the flow that differs.
Take a look here:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Fiches/Ballons/Echangeurs%20instantanes%20ECS%20en%20inox%20annele%20par%20RAMSES/index.pdf
A+
0 x
ahh looping my savior
thank you for the link I knew it it is also the work of RAMSES which guided me on the manufacture of a dead water BT, following our first discussion or my balloon was not suitable ...
in absolute terms a simple exchanger is easier to set up, the above nothing to complain about
I could see new concepts like active stratification which makes me wonder about the why not 2 exchangers ??
one at the top for the off-season which would serve and draw the calories for heating and for the charge of the balloon when we only do a short flambé
one at the bottom for the winter period which allows the balloon to be loaded on a larger volume than the first 1/3 with the top exchanger
can we get the same result with a simple exchanger?
the differences are obvious between the 2 systems in terms of performance and comfort (see offseason)
A+
thank you for the link I knew it it is also the work of RAMSES which guided me on the manufacture of a dead water BT, following our first discussion or my balloon was not suitable ...
in absolute terms a simple exchanger is easier to set up, the above nothing to complain about
I could see new concepts like active stratification which makes me wonder about the why not 2 exchangers ??
one at the top for the off-season which would serve and draw the calories for heating and for the charge of the balloon when we only do a short flambé
one at the bottom for the winter period which allows the balloon to be loaded on a larger volume than the first 1/3 with the top exchanger
can we get the same result with a simple exchanger?
the differences are obvious between the 2 systems in terms of performance and comfort (see offseason)
A+
0 x
Good evening,
The power of the exchanger, and therefore its capacity to transfer calories, essentially depends on its surface.
To this is added, in the case of ringed stainless steel, the turbulence created in the tube during the circulation of water.
So single or double exchanger, no matter when the surface is there.
Regarding active stratification, it is useful in solar, because the power is relatively low and the volume to be heated sometimes too large in mid-season. But what is true for DHW is not necessarily true for heating.
I will not try to dissuade you from wanting to heat the stock partially, but if you really want to temporarily reduce the airfoil, as your Rotex is at atmospheric pressure, empty or transfer part of its water to another capacity.
500 L is still a good compromise.
At the moment, I'm doing an outbreak from 19 p.m. to 21 p.m.
My buffer stock of 500L supplies the heating circuit at night and in the morning.
Solar takes over as soon as there is sun and maintains this same buffer tank at 35 ° C. In short, since the beginning of the month, the oil boiler has only had to run for an hour, or a consumption of ..... 3L.
A+
The power of the exchanger, and therefore its capacity to transfer calories, essentially depends on its surface.
To this is added, in the case of ringed stainless steel, the turbulence created in the tube during the circulation of water.
So single or double exchanger, no matter when the surface is there.
Regarding active stratification, it is useful in solar, because the power is relatively low and the volume to be heated sometimes too large in mid-season. But what is true for DHW is not necessarily true for heating.
I will not try to dissuade you from wanting to heat the stock partially, but if you really want to temporarily reduce the airfoil, as your Rotex is at atmospheric pressure, empty or transfer part of its water to another capacity.
500 L is still a good compromise.
At the moment, I'm doing an outbreak from 19 p.m. to 21 p.m.
My buffer stock of 500L supplies the heating circuit at night and in the morning.
Solar takes over as soon as there is sun and maintains this same buffer tank at 35 ° C. In short, since the beginning of the month, the oil boiler has only had to run for an hour, or a consumption of ..... 3L.
A+
0 x
huge fuel economy ... when I see what it costs!
I'm going to think about installing this, I didn't think it was possible to heat in inter-season with solar, but it seems possible, especially in storage ... I will obviously have a few questions, master Looping
is this possible with radiators / boiler at 60 ° C? or only under floor heating?
I will already inquire to size my installation, according to what I recover around, and open another subject.
0 x
Bonjour,
The solar contribution in autumn is random but when it is possible, whether for DHW or heating, this is where we measure the savings achievable. The collector surface is also to be taken into account for the heating, which is much more efficient.
It is true that at the moment temperatures are rather mild, as in October 2011, and that direct radiation in the home is also very favorable for maintaining the temperature in the home.
Solar heating on radiator, yes it is possible, but it is all the more efficient as the number of radiators is large (large exchange surface with ambient air and small delta T °)
At the moment, the power to pass through the heating circuit is rather low, so with water on the flow at 35 ° C, this is sufficient.
Not sure that in the coming weeks, it will always be true.
I can also give a positive feedback from the pre-heating of the DHW with an exchanger tank upstream of the electric cumulus.
My off-peak power consumption has dropped significantly. Winter wood preheating, summer solar preheating.
A+
The solar contribution in autumn is random but when it is possible, whether for DHW or heating, this is where we measure the savings achievable. The collector surface is also to be taken into account for the heating, which is much more efficient.
It is true that at the moment temperatures are rather mild, as in October 2011, and that direct radiation in the home is also very favorable for maintaining the temperature in the home.
Solar heating on radiator, yes it is possible, but it is all the more efficient as the number of radiators is large (large exchange surface with ambient air and small delta T °)
At the moment, the power to pass through the heating circuit is rather low, so with water on the flow at 35 ° C, this is sufficient.
Not sure that in the coming weeks, it will always be true.
I can also give a positive feedback from the pre-heating of the DHW with an exchanger tank upstream of the electric cumulus.
My off-peak power consumption has dropped significantly. Winter wood preheating, summer solar preheating.
A+
0 x
if you have plenty of solar collectors for heating in mid-season (spring autumn): how do you do in summer, it overheats all the time? even with a buffer tank? the safety valve spits towards the waste water, and the automatic filling unit "cools" the installation?
otherwise I suddenly ask myself questions for a buffer tank:
* I have a 200 liter electric DHW tank, I planned to drill / weld an indoor coil for the solar panels and do the DHW in summer and mid-seasons.
* for the heating I use from time to time the wood stove, on which I am mounting a boiler in parallel with the circuit of radiators.
> suddenly it seems wise to use a buffer tank? in this case, with 2 exchangers, 1 for the solar panels and 1 for the boiler stove?
I ask myself this question because initially I intended to use like you another DHW tank (300 L recovered) modified with coil, upstream of my current cumulus, but I tell myself that if I modify the current with coil while keeping the electrical backup 65 ° C, can I reuse the 300L as a buffer?
by the way, what do you think of steel radiators as a recuperated solar panel? beware of dishes, those with fins:
http://img.bricoleurdudimanche.com/IMG/ ... 351177.jpg
otherwise I suddenly ask myself questions for a buffer tank:
* I have a 200 liter electric DHW tank, I planned to drill / weld an indoor coil for the solar panels and do the DHW in summer and mid-seasons.
* for the heating I use from time to time the wood stove, on which I am mounting a boiler in parallel with the circuit of radiators.
> suddenly it seems wise to use a buffer tank? in this case, with 2 exchangers, 1 for the solar panels and 1 for the boiler stove?
I ask myself this question because initially I intended to use like you another DHW tank (300 L recovered) modified with coil, upstream of my current cumulus, but I tell myself that if I modify the current with coil while keeping the electrical backup 65 ° C, can I reuse the 300L as a buffer?
by the way, what do you think of steel radiators as a recuperated solar panel? beware of dishes, those with fins:
http://img.bricoleurdudimanche.com/IMG/ ... 351177.jpg
0 x
Hello to everybody
good seen like that the simple exchanger seems to be a good solution ...
in the long term I think to develop my installation as follows
couple 2 rotex together
1 DHW rotex
the other heating rotex
the 2 500L rotex tanks will be linked together to supply the self-draining solar panels.
I would make sure to be able to operate in solar on one or 2 tanks, which requires making the choice between heating OR DHW in off-season but will therefore limit the volume to be heated (500 instead of 1000 liters)
in summer it is planned that the heating coil in the rotex tank is also coupled to a plate exchanger. C same plate heat exchanger will be dedicated to the pool circuit
I would still have 2/3 technical question on the manufacture of my exchanger:
if I start from the work of RAMSES for the manufacture of my exchanger having a diameter 25 at my disposal.
If I stay on 38/40 meters of exchanger is it ok for heating ?? knowing that its work concerns the construction of a DHW exchanger
in manufacturing it is better a double spiral (spiral one inside the other?
or a simple spiral?
the difference between the spirals is it important? if so what gap should be favored?
is it better to tighten the spirals towards the top of the balloon? and space them down ??
Oula that makes bcp of questions all that I still have some one concerning the connection but I will stop it that is likely to become indigestible !!!
A+
good seen like that the simple exchanger seems to be a good solution ...
in the long term I think to develop my installation as follows
couple 2 rotex together
1 DHW rotex
the other heating rotex
the 2 500L rotex tanks will be linked together to supply the self-draining solar panels.
I would make sure to be able to operate in solar on one or 2 tanks, which requires making the choice between heating OR DHW in off-season but will therefore limit the volume to be heated (500 instead of 1000 liters)
in summer it is planned that the heating coil in the rotex tank is also coupled to a plate exchanger. C same plate heat exchanger will be dedicated to the pool circuit
I would still have 2/3 technical question on the manufacture of my exchanger:
if I start from the work of RAMSES for the manufacture of my exchanger having a diameter 25 at my disposal.
If I stay on 38/40 meters of exchanger is it ok for heating ?? knowing that its work concerns the construction of a DHW exchanger
in manufacturing it is better a double spiral (spiral one inside the other?
or a simple spiral?
the difference between the spirals is it important? if so what gap should be favored?
is it better to tighten the spirals towards the top of the balloon? and space them down ??
Oula that makes bcp of questions all that I still have some one concerning the connection but I will stop it that is likely to become indigestible !!!
A+
0 x
hi mi16man, i follow you closely for your achievements, having a little the same objective;
I do not ask myself these questions for the ringed stainless steel spirals since I think I will do them in copper crown;
you should take an example on self-made exchangers:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... /index.htm
the best is to be able to modify at leisure it is on ... but your questions are quite advanced on the stratification, I imagine as stable as possible, to take advantage of the different temperatures?
Anyway, I didn't know what a ROTEX oil tank was, now I'm looking for one; =)
it seems super intelligent, I remember;
by the way, could you post your current diagram with stove and project? to be inspired of course;
why in the end you only keep one exchanger?
you do not intend to connect solar panels?
Are you planning to inject the heat from the boiler? how high ?
I do not ask myself these questions for the ringed stainless steel spirals since I think I will do them in copper crown;
you should take an example on self-made exchangers:
http://www.apper-solaire.org/Pages/Expe ... /index.htm
the best is to be able to modify at leisure it is on ... but your questions are quite advanced on the stratification, I imagine as stable as possible, to take advantage of the different temperatures?
Anyway, I didn't know what a ROTEX oil tank was, now I'm looking for one; =)
mi16man wrote:in summer it is planned that the heating coil in the rotex tank is also coupled to a plate exchanger. C same plate heat exchanger will be dedicated to the pool circuit
it seems super intelligent, I remember;
by the way, could you post your current diagram with stove and project? to be inspired of course;
why in the end you only keep one exchanger?
you do not intend to connect solar panels?
Are you planning to inject the heat from the boiler? how high ?
0 x
Bonjour,
The risk of overheating in my region is especially in the summer.
On my installation, from 60 °, the solar circuit has so many losses that it peaks. Reason -> little insulation on the 2 x 40 m of PER Diameter 25 between the collectors and the tank.
The safety valve in the solar circuit must not open because it would release the heat transfer liquid. If it is antifreeze, it is not good, it is rather recovered in a container, if it is water either because it must be avoided to renew it, as for a heating circuit (contribution of oxygen to avoid).
To avoid overheating, there are a lot of solutions like:
Automatic emptying (the safest solution but which allows the sensors to rise in temperature -> premature aging of the absorber coating)
Load shedding in swimming pool or other tank
Partial masking
Be careful when working on an enamelled DHW tank, if the enamel jumps after drilling or welding, the life of the tank is greatly reduced in DHW use (attack of steel by dissolved chlorine).
For the connection of the boiler, no need for an exchanger, the circuit and the tank are pressurized. Changing it to solar is possible with an exchanger fixed to the inspection hatch.
A DHW tank can be converted into a buffer tank, but the orifices being quite small (usually 3/4 = 20/27), it must be checked that this does not disturb the loading / unloading.
For the use of radiators, unfortunately I fear that the result will be poor because of the inertia of the steel + water assembly.
The best collectors contain little water and are made of aluminum / copper because these metals are very good conductors of heat.
jonule wrote:if you have plenty of solar collectors for heating in mid-season (spring autumn): how do you do in summer, it overheats all the time? even with a buffer tank? the safety valve spits towards the waste water, and the automatic filling unit "cools" the installation?
The risk of overheating in my region is especially in the summer.
On my installation, from 60 °, the solar circuit has so many losses that it peaks. Reason -> little insulation on the 2 x 40 m of PER Diameter 25 between the collectors and the tank.
The safety valve in the solar circuit must not open because it would release the heat transfer liquid. If it is antifreeze, it is not good, it is rather recovered in a container, if it is water either because it must be avoided to renew it, as for a heating circuit (contribution of oxygen to avoid).
To avoid overheating, there are a lot of solutions like:
Automatic emptying (the safest solution but which allows the sensors to rise in temperature -> premature aging of the absorber coating)
Load shedding in swimming pool or other tank
Partial masking
otherwise I suddenly ask myself questions for a buffer tank:
* I have a 200 liter electric DHW tank, I planned to drill / weld an indoor coil for the solar panels and do the DHW in summer and mid-seasons.
Be careful when working on an enamelled DHW tank, if the enamel jumps after drilling or welding, the life of the tank is greatly reduced in DHW use (attack of steel by dissolved chlorine).
* for the heating I use from time to time the wood stove, on which I am mounting a boiler in parallel with the circuit of radiators.
> suddenly it seems wise to use a buffer tank? in this case, with 2 exchangers, 1 for the solar panels and 1 for the boiler stove?
For the connection of the boiler, no need for an exchanger, the circuit and the tank are pressurized. Changing it to solar is possible with an exchanger fixed to the inspection hatch.
I ask myself this question because initially I intended to use like you another DHW tank (300 L recovered) modified with coil, upstream of my current cumulus, but I tell myself that if I modify the current with coil while keeping the electrical backup 65 ° C, can I reuse the 300L as a buffer?
by the way, what do you think of steel radiators as a recuperated solar panel? beware of dishes, those with fins:
http://img.bricoleurdudimanche.com/IMG/ ... 351177.jpg
A DHW tank can be converted into a buffer tank, but the orifices being quite small (usually 3/4 = 20/27), it must be checked that this does not disturb the loading / unloading.
For the use of radiators, unfortunately I fear that the result will be poor because of the inertia of the steel + water assembly.
The best collectors contain little water and are made of aluminum / copper because these metals are very good conductors of heat.
0 x
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