A new type of heating! (the oldest in the world)

[dedeleco]

For the size of the pile of manure, given the conservation of energy microbes and molds release in a few months of fermentation the same energy as the combustion in a boiler of the same straw constituting the manure (at a factor near 1 to 2 )
So for a house it takes at least 3 to 10 tons of manure like 10 steres burned in one winter weigh 5 tons.
It is also necessary to isolate this manure outside so as not to lose heat.
We understand better why too large piles of manure are dangerous by catching fire spontaneously!
Besides the smell we can put this big pile of manure in his house, heating himself like our ancestors !!!

[bernardd]

I understand all that and basically we agree, apparently; what disturbs me is the inaccuracies.

Yes, certainly, but what imprecisions? A precise question, precise answer :-)

What disturbs me is the abbreviations, sources of confusion.

that chemical substances may hinder this, I agree, but that does not explain everything.

You talk about the theory of everything? this vagueness disturbs me ;-)

Seriously, take a pile of green waste or fresh manure, and sprinkle it with the chemical mix spread on the fields: will you get a composting of the same quality as if you do not put these chemicals? And yet all the food of Micro-Organisms is available ...

For example, the idea of ​​giving back earthworms, makes little sense, AMHA, while cultural practices not destroying them mechanically or chemically and bringing them food would be enough for their happiness and their multiplication!

Absolutely, I was just thinking about a test, in the context of the answer, and a transitional situation.

However, their faculty always source of astonishment for me is that their mechanical cutting multiplies them instead of destroying it :-) By cons, are the chemicals lethal to them? There are chances...

[Grelinette]

Hello everyone.

I am pleased to see that the subject gives rise to a lot of reflections and debates even if some (very interesting) move a little away from the subject. On the other hand, as soon as next spring I could bring new elements as regards the enrichment of the ground: I parked my horses in undergrowth of Aleppo pine whose acid needles are formidable for the rest of the vegetation.
Since my horses naturally "plow" the soil and the mixture with the manure, there is no longer the layer of needles and the earth reappears and has changed color very clearly; it went from a whitish color (due to the calquaire) to a brown, how would I say ... dung color
I will take pictures to make a before-and-after comparison.


To return to the subject, I am sorry that I have not yet had the time to finalize this project: I have several projects in the pipeline (including the hybrid team) that have taken an unexpected and positive boost, and a change of direction. job also slowed me down in my schedules.

In short for now, I am still accumulating manure heap without exploiting internal exothermic reactions.
I am also waiting to find recycling equipment (tubes, pipes, radiators, tipper, ...) to get started in the DIY at a lower cost. By cons, I bought probe thermometers that I tried to bury in the manure but the results are not convincing. We must also say that we had a snowy and rainy episode quite consistent that does not facilitate outdoor experiments, especially when it comes to paddling in a pile of manure!

I'm also waiting for the answer from a neighbor who has a big vintage agricultural tipper trailer that is rusting on his land. I asked him if he could lend it to me, sell (or give).
A large dump trailer would facilitate assembly of the system and manure storage.

I take advantage of a remark to validate an idea:

the manure should be stirred or moved around the exchanger in a large pile every few hours.

Stir the pile of manure brings a more interesting?
If this is the case, then we must imagine a simple and easy to implement such as a large cylindrical tank that can be rotated manually or automatically, like a concrete mixer.

In any case, if I rely on the dung of my horses to heat me this winter, I have better hurry because soon, it is the opposite result that I will have to do: refrigerate my house this summer with manure ... and it may be another pair of sleeves!

[chatelot16]

the manure heats up if there is air, but too much air disperses the heat and there is nothing to recover

mechanically stir is a way to share the air throughout the ts, but the thermal power is quite low: riddling may consume more than it produces

a big rotating tank like a concrete mixer will be too expensive

all this tricky thing to get some heat does not seem very profitable

as long as you have a gas plant, you can make a methanisation, a sealed tank, no air and methane production that is much more valuable than low temperature heat.

the methane is storable and transportable: the tank of methanisation can be far from the house, to facilitate the manutension around

the production of methane can be shared between a large number of users

there are already methanisation that are profitable elsewhere in the world: in France the problem is not technical, but regulatory: there is so much regulation too expensive to respect that any project in the genre is dead

the only way to make profitable is to say nothing to do is a little DIY at home: problem plus it's small plus the yield is low: the power to heat the vat depand of the surface, the flow product depand volume: more it's big less heating the tank made of loss

to advance it will be necessary to make reasonable regulations to authorize small instalation of methanisation everywhere in France to properly valorize the green waste the manure and certain junk

[Grelinette]

Thank you chatelot16 for your clarification.

In a sense, concerning the system to stir the pile of manure, it arranges me to learn that it is a priori superfluous because I have not already solved the most effective way to recover the basic heat!

For methane gas, even if it is more profitable, my opinion is similar to my previous remark: it is already not easy to find ways to recover calories with a safe material (horse dung), I prefer so do not get into the handling of an explosive gas!

Finally, I agree with you that in France regulation (and administration) are bullets and anvils for many innovative projects, ecological, economic and therefore econological.

As an anecdote, last week I met an organization for a micro-credit to finance the hybrid equestrian team project. It turns out that they have a similar project: an urban transport company in a hybrid tricycle.
This project is blocked simply because there is no APE code in France for this type of transport and therefore no administration accepts to record this activity !!!!

From the great administrative stuff of which our country is still a proud representative.

[Ahmed]

@ Bernardd :
For abbreviations, I do not abuse it and always specify once the entire expression (except the usual abbreviations).

What you say about phytosanitary products (sic!) Is perfectly accurate but does not do justice to the whole process ...
Phytosanitary products are part of a global system of land use and are consistent with other practices equally harmful to soil life.

On earthworms: mechanical cutting does not multiply them, contrary to popular opinion; what is true is that a worm cut in 2 can sometimes survive because of its particular physiology, which, in itself, is already very surprising.
The worms have a semi-permeable outer wall, which makes them very vulnerable to chemical agents, not only in terms of toxicity, but also by osmosis (in contact with fertilizers, for example).

[Ptilu]

Heat recovery is not likely to kill the reaction?

Of course we must not recover everything ... It is the risk by using a circuit of water ...

[bernardd]

What you say about phytosanitary products (sic!) Is perfectly accurate but does not do justice to the whole process ...
Phytosanitary products are part of a global system of land use and are consistent with other practices equally harmful to soil life.

The term justice is as surprising here as the term health :-)

I agree with you, but the rest of the practice can stop immediately, while the chemicals remain an indeterminate time, and block the positive aspects of organisms, whether micro or macro, as you point out for the worms .

[Forhorse]

In my opinion, and at the risk of repeating what has already been said above, the recovery of the heat produced by the fermentation is impossible.
Already the amount of calories produced is very small in terms of volume. When it snows on a pile of manure, even very large, the snow does not melt much faster than on the ground, proof that the amount of heat produced and therefore released is not that important.
Then the very nature of the material makes it very difficult to recover this energy, it is a solid and insulating material, there is no convection inside which could bring the heat of the hot points towards the points cold.
Finally, cooling the material stops the reaction and thus the production of heat. I had the experience last year. I used a pile of manure to insulate my water tank. having separated the manure from the tank by a tarpaulin, I could slip my hand along the parrot in some places, it was always cold even if further reaction continued to occur and to release heat.
Another example is that the slightest fact of stirring the manure pile (to arrange it, for example) and thus aerating it and cooling it, stops the reaction easily during 24h.

I would say that the heat production is equivalent to 100W by m3 manure and that, if it was recoverable, only 1 / 3 could be recoverable without the reaction stops.
This is of course only the pifometer, I may be far from the account, but I remain convinced that it would take a huge volume for it to be exploitable and that the method of recovery of energy would make that anyway the system would never be profitable.

[Ahmed]

Bernardd you write:

The term justice is as surprising here as the term health :-)

I didn't explain myself properly, the term "justice" applies to the process which goes from organic matter through macro fauna, micro fauna, fungi, to form humus and, finally, bacteria which transform l 'humus in elements that can be assimilated by plants (when said bacteria are stimulated by root emissions from plants).
This is called a food web.

Further, you say:

the rest of the practices can stop immediately

The bulk of the effort is on chemical agriculture: it is not easy to change the model massively and quickly while alternative techniques exist, certainly, but still require many adjustments and developments.