State of mind for a viable future

[eclectron]

An economist who is considering debt to save the current crash ...
creating unrequited money is not part of its software (donation of money freshly created by the ECB), it would however be much simpler and more human but would risk undermining the grip of the banking system and economy as we know it.
Economy which I recall is not sustainable ....
He specifies, however, that politicians always have the hand, otherwise it is not worth presenting if one considers that one cannot act. This is not wrong but like him, they are in the "classic" software and conformists ... therefore powerless.
Fortunately there are Gael Griraud to raise the level.
https://podcasts.apple.com/fr/podcast/c ... 0470312491

Sometimes I wonder if economists have a brain ...
Towards -12mn, he said that an economy that works only on debt infusion, like ours, is not healthy.
But it still works ...
And previously he said that operating the ticket machine would create hyperinflation, blah we know what happens next.

To make society work, you need money where it needs it.
The debt solution has been applied for ages. The concern is that one day, we have to repay the main loan and the interest, so with debt, it's easier today but will be even harder tomorrow.
and the ticket printing solution, in moderation, is the same except that, it is not difficult today and not tomorrow. except that the banks do not force-feed themselves ...

When are we going to prioritize the Human and the biotope over finance and its stupid rules, which favor only a minority?

[Ahmed]

I kill myself to explain to you that the capital point is the abstract value, whether it is in the form of cash or in the form of a commodity incorporating human labor, one passes to the other and cannot exist simultaneously under these two aspects. What gets stuck, in addition to the principle of accumulation, is the fact that work disregards its own purpose (in the sense that it is interested in exchange value and shows itself indifferent to use value) , provided it corresponds to a quantity of work, therefore it becomes blind to purposes directly serving the human community (therefore it does not matter whether it is food * or weapons).
Again, it is not the bank that creates the loan, it is the approach of the borrower who undertakes to carry out a certain amount of work which he requests in advance in cash; the bank only serves to guarantee this commitment to third parties.

* Even in this case, food will only be produced for its abstract value and will be refused to those who need it without being able to satisfy this prerequisite.

Regarding your last message, there are a multitude of examples where debts have never been repaid, so I would be less assertive than you ...

[eclectron]

I kill myself :

Don't worry, I have the same feeling about you!
I will not be long in giving up. You will win by fortrait!

I kill myself to explain to you that the capital point is the abstract value, whether it comes in the form of cash or in the form of a commodity incorporating human labor, one goes to the other and does not can exist simultaneously under these two aspects.

This is simply not true.
I sell my house, the house still exists and I have the money from the loan from the buyer, newly created money ....

Again, it is not the bank that creates the loan, it is the approach of the borrower who undertakes to carry out a certain amount of work which he requests in advance in cash; the bank only serves to guarantee this commitment to third parties.

Yes then there, it is nitpicking which I would do well.
Only a bank has the power to create money, not the acquirer.

Regarding your last message, there are a multitude of examples where debts have never been repaid, so I would be less assertive than you ...

Yes, finally, I place myself in the perspective of the classical economist, of the good student who respects the rules well. In theory a debt must be repaid, after in fact, I follow you.
When the debt is stratospheric or when a small virus comes to seize the machine, one can have surprises on the repayment of the debts, indeed.

[GuyGadebois]

I kill myself

So ... "neither flowers nor crown" or "funeral and national mourning with ashes in the Pantheon"?

[eclectron]

I kill myself

So ... "neither flowers nor crown" or "funeral and national mourning with ashes in the Pantheon"?

Can we organize a collective suicide?

[GuyGadebois]

Can we organize a collective suicide?

So kill yourself collectively on your own if you like.

[eclectron]

Can we organize a collective suicide?

So kill yourself collectively on your own if you like.

There are several of us in my head so it stands!

[Ahmed]

Eclectron, you write:

I sell my house, the house still exists and I have the money from the loan from the buyer, newly created money ....

The buyer's money has been transformed into merchandise (the house) and your merchandise has been transformed into cash, nothing which contradicts my assertions: it is a double point of view: a purchase and a sale, which is always the case during an exchange on the market ... and the overall forward value will be unchanged (compared to the time at which the loan is contracted), as soon as the buyer has kept his promise to supply in one way or another, the work equivalent of his initial engagement. Ultimately, this may mean that the sum of real and numerical values ​​increases since additional work is provided (case of productive borrowing) or that nothing changes if this investment results in a consequent restriction of other expenses (case of l 'consumer loan).

As well;

Only a bank has the power to create money, not the acquirer.

Certainly, formally, but the creation stems from the request of the borrower ...

On the last point: apart from the classic case of default, there are artifices, such as inflation, which punctuate rentiers (to put it quickly) in favor of private or public borrowers ...

[eclectron]

I kill myself to explain to you that the capital point is the abstract value, whether it is in the form of cash or in the form of a commodity incorporating human labor

I think you're killing yourself for nothing, because I'm not talking about "abstract value", I'm talking about concrete currency even if it is rather abstract when it is in scriptural form on the accounts.
But the figures on the account, are considered very concrete.

I also speak of a very concrete money supply and still no value, even less abstract.

So the "abstract value" is perhaps a capital point for what interests you but not to introduce that the very concrete currency, which allows the exchange of very concrete goods and services, is by construction a concrete object which is doomed to disappear of the economy because of concrete loan repayments. (All money on the planet is debt to banks, even savings, except coins and notes)

Consequently to have what to exchange very concrete goods and services, requires very concrete money in circulation (scriptural included) and implies that we are in an economy in perpetual growth under penalty of not having any concrete money in the long term to exchange goods and concrete services.

Yes, we can have goods and services without necessarily being growing and the current currency prohibits this scenario *. Except at the beginning, as in our sluggish economy perfused with non-reimbursable debts, when the money supply is still substantial. We hit the eclectron lake ... and it comes to an end.
* which would be a step towards a viable future, a sustainable world.

In short, concrete money connects us to concrete growth.

Now if you want to talk about "abstract value" and its crucial importance in the concrete world, which would prevent or help us move towards a viable future, I am now all ears.

[Ahmed]

There is a big concern with terminology: how would money, even "embodied" in a banknote, be concrete? This piece of paper has value only because of what it symbolizes, therefore its abstraction: its concrete and material aspect has none (at least not beyond the price of a ton of paper for recycling!). A bank note only represents an acknowledgment of debt exchangeable up to its face value ... Nothing therefore more abstract than this note, apart from scriptural money which cannot even be used to light a cigar (discreet allusion at Serge Gainsbourg!)!
The money supply, on the other hand, is obviously just as abstract as what constitutes it ...
What probably misleads you is that value is a real-abstraction: it is an abstraction with very concrete consequences.
Of course, all money is debt, but is not doomed to disappear for two reasons: the first is that abstract value is constantly metamorphosed between its different forms: from scriptural it becomes merchandise, then reintegrates its former appearance before being reincarnated into a new commodity and so on in a perpetual cycle with different economic agents. The second being that the abstract value derives from human labor and thus the source that feeds the lake.Eclectron is continuously in operation ... This last point is subject to revision, it should be noted, since the quantity of human labor tends to decrease under the effect of productivity improvements and without the massive supply of cash without counterpart ( in clear which will only be reimbursed by new loans), the lake would see its low water inexorably drop ...