The "veggie pride".

[Ahmed]

On the first remark, I agree, however the quantitative would have a great influence on animal suffering ...
Of course, as you note, this state of mind is fragile and susceptible to reversal, which is why an evolution towards synthetic meat, as I suggested, would represent a possibility to overcome the limitations of breeding. industrial and thus increase energy dissipation.

[sen-no-sen]

The economic system needs to sectorise individuals to ensure profit maximization.
Until now, vegetarianism / lism had no need of a market since that had existed for a long time both in greengrocers, market or supermarket, there was, in the end, only to buy fruit and vegetables, not very "bankable" for the system!
With the typical movements vegan, there is creation of a new sector, the manufacturers will therefore offer a whole range of product from industrialization to consumers vegan ultra liberal trend: so there are already hamburgers without meat, sushi without fish etc ...

This process is not new, it was the same with feminist, ethnic, homosexual currents, "urban youth", hipsters, etc ...individuation allows to offer a panel of consumer products without limits! $$$$$$

[Janic]

Ahmed hello

On the first remark, I agree, however the quantitative would have a great influence on animal suffering ...

It is obvious ! But the VG, this last century was less focused on the animal suffering, than on the human suffering engendered by a physiologically inadequate food and generating lots of pathologies attenuating or disappearing with a change of food, and therefore vegetable (I have already spoken at length).
Veganism goes further and emphasizes that worrying about human suffering without worrying about animal suffering was ethically contradictory. My few exchanges with an accentuated vegan VG site falls, for some, in the opposite pattern; that is to say that it does not matter the human suffering (for other reasons than the sensiblerie vis-à-vis the animals) provided that we do not touch small and big stupid. I do not insinuate that this is representative of the philosophy itself, but of the behavior of some who, unfortunately, dominate in forums on the subject.

Of course, as you note, this state of mind is fragile and susceptible to reversal, which is why an evolution towards synthetic meat, as I suggested, would represent a possibility to overcome the limitations of breeding. industrial and thus increase energy dissipation.

Yes and no ! On the one hand it is only at an experimental stage, without thorough dietary and health studies, nor the fact that this kind of production could hardly pass the laboratory stage, both the conditions of hygiene and health. manufacturing would be drastic (regardless of its energy expenditure and it is a few million tons, not a few pounds). Especially since demand is growing, exponential! While we have enough plant foods in sufficient quantities to feed this growing population (regardless of other parameters): so why make it complicated when it's easy? And in addition the pathologies that are the bed of many sufferings would subside and disappear quickly, which is not the slightest advantage.

Sen no sen hello

With vegan-type movements, there is the creation of a new sector, so manufacturers will offer a whole range of products from industrialization to ultra-liberal vegan consumers: there are already burgers without meat, sushi without fish etc ...

This aspect is valid for everything as soon as it passes the stage of products intended for a minority. The gardens are only valid for a small family, but to feed a population, it is necessary to go to the stage of market gardening, to see of the great culture and thus of all the industrialization which accompanies it. It would be odd that this vegan aspect OR ANY OTHER escapes. So the ultra liberal trend side .... !

[Ahmed]

In my previous message I stated a hypothesis logically consistent with the functioning of the system, not what would be desirable and, indeed, the mass production of synthetic proteins would be done without taking into account human health, as is currently the case, since this is not his goal.
You write:

so, why make complicated when it can be simple?

Exactly! The more complicated a process is, the more likely it is to be economically attractive, since it configures the small share allocated to the small hands of breeding and concentrates the gain on the minority who owns the sophisticated instruments of production. Here again, it is a question of maximizing the dissipation of energy ...

[Obamot]

If tomorrow the meat is no longer suspected of being carcinogenic or if the daily steak can be replaced by other meat substitutes, (a dietary absurdity as energetic as large as the breeding for food purposes). As long as bogus consumption is and will remain an indicator of social success, (see China after the West) things are not about to change.

Except that if in the West, veganism progressed in a massive way (thanks to the announcement of the WHO, then resumed by mouth in chorus by the health authorities "in a sheep spirit of the most beautiful effect" since bleating-helping in this direction, then things could possibly change ...) it would take time (the bleats must be repeated for a long time and multiple times) ... but if it became "the model", the trend would be reversed since according to what you say about the correct observation of the facts (alas): the rest of the world could well rely on this "new western model" ... and he would follow (or in any case a part would follow).

Veganism is to food what renewable energies are to "sustainable development":
- a system adjustment variable in order to retreat further the final collapse.

It depends (and in my humble opinion) if you see it 1) from the point of view of the mimetic observation of the facts

► View Text

(of the order of Aristotelian and Mechanist traditions, if [...] then [...]),

a kind of self-regulation of the system causing spontaneous emergence by reaction and materializing by a kind of "tendency to follow-up encouraging some shedding of livestock"but without this being something really deliberate: as Ahmed says: from"hypothesis logically consistent with the functioning of the system"Even if a little hat straight out (remaining on the order of paralogism or something), where Conversely if 2) it would be a concerted and voluntary plan to back down "the inevitable deadline".

In the second case, what would be the clues to prove it?

and, indeed, the massive production of synthetic proteins would be done without taking into account human health,

The problem is the "compliance with metabolic needsOf these protein productions. Because the human being can not draw "what this protein production could offer» but strictly limited to that and not as derived from a natural product: "what the metabolism would choose to do with"... which already poses a problem of limiting the quantity of the" shoot "caused by consuming excess meat (I will leave aside the specific aspect of" adaptation "of the metabolism to take advantage of what is offers him, since history has shown that this model had its limits => see appearance of pathologies due to deficiencies)

Why do I say “shoot”, because “non-vegans” are all addicted to processed foods (in many ways: this goes from excess salt (s), sugar (s), CIS fatty acids which are directly from the groups of toxins contained in the products and resulting from and generated by industrial processes (or not, the craft industry can produce them) drugged still by other force-feeding of the type of "devitalized substances", to the worse still which are the cocktails of pesticides and other carcinogenic glyphosates) and all that is addictive, and when you go to "real" veganism, you need a transitional period during which you go through a process of withdrawal from toxins (the human body claiming its dose ...?), pollutants and other undesirable substances (and it is surprising but quite explicable: we physically feel this weaning, even if the step is deliberate and made with a good heart). While the industrial manufacture of "devitalized vegan" products (it already exists) self-sustains metabolic intoxication (majority digestion by putrefaction VS majority by fermentation). What about who knows exactly where the cursor is - between the two modes of digestion - for each of us? Yes the question is ...: "cow"

[Obamot]

PS: all things considered, without wanting to advance (philosophically but brimming with this framework) and in my humble opinion:
- I think that all Western society (by an overwhelming majority) is governed by mechanisms "indoctrination, self-indoctrination and self-maintenance of this indoctrination and resulting dependencies " (and which sometimes takes the form of a "consented enslavement" as we have already said here and there in this forum), and in particular generated bythe need for restraint"Related to the" need to belong "cf Masslow (for other societies, similar mechanisms undoubtedly exist, the"need of constraintBeing universal.) I must thank Sen-No-Sen, who, in establishing a parallel between two things seeming quite far apart, allowed me to clear this ^^
(but that's also true of our reflections in the debates here "among all") and if it is just (or only partially ...)

[Janic]

Ahmed hello

You write:
so, why make complicated when it can be simple?

Exactly! The more complicated a process is, the more likely it is to be economically attractive, since it configures the small share allocated to the small hands of breeding and concentrates the gain on the minority who owns the sophisticated instruments of production. Here again, it is a question of maximizing the dissipation of energy ...

who are you saying that to !!!!

Obamot hello

Except that if in the West, veganism progressed in a massive way (thanks to the announcement of the WHO, then resumed by mouth in chorus by the health authorities "in a sheep spirit of the most beautiful effect" since bleating-helping in this direction , then things could possibly change ...) it would take time (the bleating must be repeated for a long time and many times) ... but if it became "the model", the trend would be reversed since depending on what you say about the correct observation of the facts (alas): the rest of the world could well rely on this "new western model" ... and it would follow (or in any case a part would follow).

This does not hold for several reasons, the most important of which is incompatible with our type of society is that veganism is not content to refuse the consumption of animal flesh, but any exploitation or use of the animal even in aid ( as the guide dogs for example) more breeding and therefore more leather products, more riding, more wool by mowing, etc ... So many ignore this feature almost unacceptable by most of the populations even arranged to make some dietary changes; (Besides, vegetable preparations are at least as tasty as animal preparations.)
So do not confuse VGR, VGL and vegan.

[Obamot]

Absolutely !

Unfortunately I said that in the perspectiveof what will probably happen», Ie at best a flexitarism abstinent up to a percentage to be observed in a given population.

People are not already going to vote (in countries where it is not mandatory with a voter registration card)!
... then the animal cause ... pffff, how much do they care?

At this moment I make sensational experiences with cats (which as we know are carnivorous ....) Finally they are fortuitous experiences, spontaneous and therefore not calculated. There is a big garden, they come and go as they want, we talk to them, they seem not to understand but it's very false they have their own communication codes ... and they know how to express things, a lot of things...

For example, they are aware or have implemented in their behavior that they have "a function", that of hunting mice, which serves them both as a meal and the fact that it is worth them to be "accepted" (pampered? ) in a house which provides them with a certain security ... and with which it shares the living space and heat in winter or in autumn, when it gets cool, at night ... (There they go back to shelter ... while the foxes roam outside and then they could become easy prey.)

But something new happened .... There was a time when the male (then the others, there are three) came to show off their "catch" ostentatiously to show "that they did their job", it was very visible, they brought it like a trophy, showed it to us, looked us in the eyes, then went to a corner to do their tasting ....

Only the mice were scarce, they started to catch the birds ... The neighbor blamed them a little without scolding them, really in a peaceful way without stressing them ... And apparently they understood! Because afterwards, as a trophy and for "continue to dry the exchange", they no longer brought us either mice or birds but other trophies: flowers ... leaves ... always showing them to us in an ostentatious way as before (without however eating them afterwards) with an air of saying , you see, we're always here to do the job if you need it (!) or something

And when I was near the stairs leading to the cellar, the proud male continued to descend there to make his rounds, then come out "the duty accomplished ..."

This is the life of animals, they are sentient beings and intelligence and extraordinary social behavior, we do not always suspect enough. But hey, I let everyone see the implication of the domestication of animals and where to set the limit ... It all depends, it depends ... I still have other examples of this type with other animals .. Stories that are just as incredible and incongruous, and inspire respect.

So good, killing them to eat for me is niet.

[sen-no-sen]

is that veganism is not content to refuse the consumption of animal flesh, but any exploitation or use of the animal even in aid (like the guide dogs for example) more breeding and therefore more leather products, more riding, more wool by mowing, etc ...

But tolerates the use of small Chinese hands for their I-phone .... The concept at its limits ...

The vegan mobility is based on the notion of antispécisme, outside this notion was immediately recovered by the postmodernist movements.
The term vegan is also born in American universities where studies of the genre appeared, the theory of deconstruction etc ...
"Veggie pride" is also entirely modeled on "gay pride", there are also different alternative places where "vegan" lgbt and consort rub shoulders ...
So here again we have a wonderful social engineering instrument to classify people into genres, that's exactly what the system wants, and the system is ready to concede ground (animal welfare is not very good for business) to allow are final subjection on the brains.

[Janic]

But tolerates the use of small Chinese hands for their I-phone .... The concept at its limits ...

It's irrelevant!
If everyone examines himself, we are also full of these contradictions between a philosophy and practice in other areas! This is the human!

The vegan mobility is based on the notion of antispecism, outside this notion was immediately recovered by postmodernist movements.

It's almost inevitable! However, we must not confuse an idea and what some, without direct report, will make: what is escaping it? now a pride vegetable: why not? it is in the air of time and a means like any other to mediate a choice of life, an idea, to see a political claim, economic or any other.
Would you prefer that they hide themselves, shut themselves up in silence so as not to disturb an established order?