Vortex wind turbine towers: synthesis

Forum solar photovoltaic PV and solar electricity generation from direct radiation solar energy.
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Remundo
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by Remundo » 21/06/09, 22:49

for intermittence, the wind is much more irregular than the sun and more difficult to store. But this is not the subject. :P

It is one thing not to neglect any solution, starting with the best is even better. 8)

The sun is relatively predictable and stable in the Mediterranean, a fortiori further south, and it can be stored in thermal form in industrial-sized "thermos bottles". We could thus start the vortex at will.

However, the "vortex-effect" tower is nothing more than a thermal machine between a hot source and a cold source.

The hot spring is solar and of very poor quality (at most 60 ° C at the bottom of the tower). The cold source is hardly better: 0 ° C, a little less in the upper atmosphere: it is this coldness that we wish to benefit from by a vortex of gigantic height (whose formation, control and stability are very hypothetical ...).

That said, even assuming we can initiate and control the vortex, the air stream generated can carry away in mechanical form only a very small fraction of the thermal energy which gives rise to it ; with turbines behind, limited by the yield of Betz, we will recover mechanically surely less than 10% of the solar power collected. The maximum theoretical is even (1-273 / 333) * 16/27 = 10.6%

The vortex is thermally only a gigantic current of heat which transfers calories from hot to cold: or mechanical sampling is only valid if there is a large deltaT between the hot and cold source.

To put forward the "vortex and Coriolis" is a certain mystique: although present, they will not change anything at the limit of Carnot and that of Betz. Which will dramatically limit the mechanical efficiency of a hypothetical artificial tornado? : Idea:

On the contrary, with concentrated solar power, today we obtain 30% with deltaT of more than 600 ° C, and thermodynamic solar energy has not said its last word. : Idea:

Well, I may not be understandable by everyone, but I take care of myself : Cheesy:

See you soon !
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by sen-no-sen » 06/08/09, 18:32

Anyone have news of Mr Coustou and his project ???
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by minguinhirigue » 08/08/09, 09:30

Remundo, we agree on the fact that the tower remains comparable to a thermal machine. So as you mentioned, the theoretical yield barely exceeds 10%.

But the possibility of using mixed-use vortex towers remains interesting to me: from greenhouse cultivation to replacing industrial cooling towers, the dual uses of these towers are interesting.

Furthermore, if by increasing the size of the chimney, the theoretical thermal efficiency is only slightly modified, but as a first approximation:
- the thermal capacity is increased (the operating stability except sunshine) in relation to the surface on the ground (square elevation).
- the actual efficiency of the chimney is increased, by reducing the input / output ratio by a factor: (2 * pi * R) / (pi * r²) ... R being the radius of the base, and r the radius of the evacuation circle ...

Correct me if im wrong...

So if industrial prototypes can be useful for recovering among other things 10% of the 66% of nuclear energy dissipated in raw heat, i.e. an increase in the efficiency of power plants by 20% ... I am for ...

But I agree that other devices are more urgent for centralized production. Concentrated solar is one of them.
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by sen-no-sen » 11/08/09, 19:59

The cost of a 150m demonstrator would be relatively low, and the construction time of less than 3 months, so why not do it?
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by minguinhirigue » 11/08/09, 20:40

I don't think we should do without these prototypes.

Prototypes and operational projects in concentrated solar power exist, they just need to be popularized.

But while an efficient technology is developing, it is essential to continue studying other solutions (Vortex tower ...) and push them to the prototype ... Especially if they are so easily adaptable to existing industrial installations . :D
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by Remundo » 13/08/09, 14:45

Hi Mingui,

Glad to see that we have the same opinion :D

See you soon.
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by Alain Coustou » 14/08/09, 09:41

sen-no-sen wrote:Anyone have news of Mr Coustou and his project ???


Hello Sen-No-SEN and all of you,
I had many concerns (health and financial) and still a few disappointments in contacts that looked promising, but which my interlocutors have shrunk from the importance of the capital to be committed: even grouped together, the companies that build wind turbines that contacted me don't have enough backbones to finance the entire project development program, including the prototype.
So, with a dozen friends and two engineers passionate about this project (a TP engineer and a fluid mechanics engineer), Alary and I chose to create our own company (a SAS) to at least start the program. experiment and thus prove his interest. Finally, we have also collected public commitments for project aid and for the provision of land. The company is expected to be incorporated next month.

At Remundo, I would point out that Betz's law applies in the case of non-faired wind turbines.
However, in the case of wind turbines, the turbines are faired and the system generates a certain overpressure at their base. Here we therefore go beyond the limitations of Betz's law.

Basically, between towers and wind turbines, there is a difference comparable to that between a jet plane and a propeller microlight. The propeller plane will never reach transonic speed, whereas a jet plane can be much faster.

Regarding the performance and scientific aspects of the project, you can read the latest files placed on the two yahoo French-speaking groups dedicated to wind turbines:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aerogeneratrice/
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/tours_ ... stou-alary

You can also read the large article devoted to vortex towers (and in particular aerogenerating towers) published in issue 5/2008 of the French edition of ISJAEE (International Scientific Journal for Alternative Energy and Ecology). The same article was also published in English and Russian.
ISJAEE website: http://www.hydrogen.ru

And good end of the holidays to all!

Alain
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by Remundo » 14/08/09, 14:58

Hello Mr. Coustou,

The fact that the flow is ducted or not does not change Betz's reasoning which is done on a current tube, one of the sections of which corresponds to the area swept by the rotor. The fairing imposes a material current tube, whereas without fairing, we reason on a tube that exists, but not geometrically constrained by "the hand of man".

On the other hand, the incompressibility hypothesis is necessary in Betz's law. I'm not sure in which aerodynamic domain your turbines are located: however, if the flows are very subsonic (?), The fluid is at first approximation incompressible, and therefore Betz applies with good precision.

To play on pressure is to play on density. We would then get closer to a gas turbine technology (of fairly gigantic radius, or more turbines ...) in your tower, rather than wind turbines ... : Idea: The yield will be a little exhilarated, but still will not be miraculous because of the small deltaT between the ground and the heavens ...

It then remains to "catch up" on the collecting solar surface and the generosity of our good old Sun. 8)

I wish you good luck in this ambitious endeavor.

Best regards.
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by Alain Coustou » 14/08/09, 19:21

In the Betz hypothesis (non-faired wind turbine), part of the air can escape, bypassing the area traversed by the blades; which is not the case in the hypothesis of a streamlined vertical flow with controlled overpressure. So yes, we are getting closer here to the problem of gas turbines (of course without achieving their efficiency) and I think it is possible to achieve a final efficiency of around 50%, or even a little more, with the help of other natural forces that we intend to combine.

So, if we want to create in the tower the conditions for the appearance of a controlled tornado (vortex), it is because we know that, in nature, this type of phenomenon is one of the most energetic that there is.
Then, we also recover the energy linked to the phenomenon of condensation after the first stage of the turbine, a phenomenon due here to the decompression which occurs at this level.
Finally, the possible wind can contribute to increase the overpressure to which I alluded, by the game of the control of the air intake flaps (while this same wind reduces the efficiency of simple solar towers, part of the calories solar panels being evacuated outside without passing through the tower).

In addition, I know very well that the Venturi effect does not add any energy, but it has the great merit of concentrating it on a smaller surface and thus making it possible to recover energy from an air flow which, without he might be too slow to get anything. And the diameter of the turbines thus remains compatible with current technologies.

But practically all these aspects have been developed in the files available in the Yahoo groups whose links I have previously communicated to you.

There are still a few elements likely to further improve the performance and usefulness of the towers, but they remain confidential for the time being, as they may fuel a third patent, or be the subject of negotiations with major industrial or sector partners. the energy that we do not despair of convincing ...

Sincerely,

Alain
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by Remundo » 14/08/09, 19:55

I went to see your patent and indeed, it seems to me that we are in the field of TAGs.

Good luck and keep us posted : Idea:
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