Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the ground

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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by sicetaitsimple » 01/11/21, 14:23

Christophe wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:You can only store heat via steam by operating the system at high pressure, it is necessarily "dead"


So with very significant efforts on the large tank ... hence their choice of carrier air?


Yes, basically that's it.
You cannot combine very high temperatures and very high pressures, otherwise you fall into creep problems (decrease in the mechanical strength of alloys in the long term).
Today no steam generator in the world operates above 620 ° C. And gas turbines, which operate at 1400/1500 ° C at the turbine inlet for the most modern, is "consumable", every 3 years or so parts subject to the most difficult conditions are replaced (combustion chambers, first turbine stages).
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Obamot » 01/11/21, 14:24

which roughly corresponds to what I wrote above, but with other words and another coating ... Are you ok Kiki ...? : Cheesy:

sen-no-sen wrote:
Obamot wrote:
If we count that the 950 ° C can be stored for 8 months (with only 20% loss) we fall not far from these 700 ° C.


I didn't understand a point, how do you keep such a quantity of energy for so long?
It seems that basalt (volcanic lava) would have this property. It is still necessary to isolate the top (critical area), hence the choice of air circulating under pressure to ensure this?
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Obamot » 01/11/21, 15:35

PS:

- the opening of the solar rays can be made of a triple slab of borosilicate glass (which holds up to 1 ° C) which does not prevent the light rays from entering the storage tank.

- for hot compressed air as “insulator”: can it lead to temperatures of 700 ° C, there are already heat guns (foehn) which go up to 600 ° C and more.
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by sen-no-sen » 01/11/21, 15:48

Obamot wrote:It seems that basalt (volcanic lava) would have this property. It is still necessary to isolate the top (critical area), hence the choice of air circulating under pressure to ensure this?


Frankly, I have a very big doubt on the subject; one only has to observe the cooling of the lava on the surface (during a volcanic eruption) to be convinced.
According to studies carried out with molten salts in concentrated solar power plants, the idea is to maintain the heat during the night, nothing more, and that's already not bad! So several months!
To achieve such a prodigy would require an exotic envelope that would stop the increase in entropy, at the present time such research only exists in theory.
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 01/11/21, 17:07

sen-no-sen wrote:
Obamot wrote:It seems that basalt (volcanic lava) would have this property. It is still necessary to isolate the top (critical area), hence the choice of air circulating under pressure to ensure this?


Frankly, I have a very big doubt on the subject; one only has to observe the cooling of the lava on the surface (during a volcanic eruption) to be convinced.
According to studies carried out with molten salts in concentrated solar power plants, the idea is to maintain the heat during the night, nothing more, and that's already not bad! So several months!
To achieve such a prodigy would require an exotic envelope that would stop the increase in entropy, at the present time such research only exists in theory.

Did you read that? The properties of basalt are surprising:
https://claudegrandpeyvolcansetglaciers ... no-hawaii/
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by sen-no-sen » 01/11/21, 17:22

In the case of volcanism, the masses involved are very important, which explains the enormous thermal inertia. In the case of a solar power plant, this requires solving a certain number of problems in terms of the circulation of heat transfer fluids. would do no harm.
If I summarize the principle of this plant, it is a gigantic Fresnel lens that increases the temperature at the focal point of a liquid (?) To make it circulate in basalt, itself inside it. 'an airtight container.
I absolutely do not question the operation of the concentrator (very pretty by the way) but the announced duration of the thermal storage which seems to me very optimistic.
If necessary, figures should be available on the operating life of this heat source in winter, for example.
:?:
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by sicetaitsimple » 01/11/21, 17:33

sen-no-sen wrote:
Obamot wrote:It seems that basalt (volcanic lava) would have this property. It is still necessary to isolate the top (critical area), hence the choice of air circulating under pressure to ensure this?


Frankly, I have a very big doubt on the subject; one only has to observe the cooling of the lava on the surface (during a volcanic eruption) to be convinced.
According to studies carried out with molten salts in concentrated solar power plants, the idea is to maintain the heat during the night, nothing more, and that's already not bad! So several months!
To achieve such a prodigy would require an exotic envelope that would stop the increase in entropy, at the present time such research only exists in theory.


Yes, and it would be all the more ridiculous if a storage is made for cycling, otherwise it is useless! Whatever the process of the thermodynamic solar power plant, adding storage is only beneficial to charge it during the day and unload it the following night.
What would be the point of loading a storage in September for example to use the heat in January or February? To nothing.
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 01/11/21, 17:45

It's so simple ... and when it rains for several days in a row, or when the cloud cover prevents the power plant from running at full capacity, or even during mirror maintenance, or even in the event of long repairs?
They are not saying that they will store heat for months, they are talking about the properties of basalt ... : roll:
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Obamot wrote: Apologize for all the wrong you've done! Apologize here right away — especially to Christophe — and try not to do it again. It's not a “gag”. It's your only chance. If you wait too long you will pay a very, very high price later, a price you don't even suspect.
sicetaitsimple
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by sicetaitsimple » 01/11/21, 18:06

GuyGadeboisLeRetour wrote: and when it rains for several days in a row, or when the cloud cover prevents the power plant from operating at full capacity, or during mirror maintenance, or in the event of long repairs?

Well we move on, for example a gas plant. You can take it all the way, but "solar" storage only makes sense if it cycles on a daily basis (without doing a complete charge / discharge cycle each time, it can depend on the days).
It is exactly the same thing for WWTPs: today there are rather too many WWTPs in France compared to the need, they are far from being used at their optimum.
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Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 01/11/21, 18:08

sicetaitsimple wrote:Well we move on, for example a gas plant.

I hallucinate from so much stupidity ... : roll:
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Obamot wrote: Apologize for all the wrong you've done! Apologize here right away — especially to Christophe — and try not to do it again. It's not a “gag”. It's your only chance. If you wait too long you will pay a very, very high price later, a price you don't even suspect.


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