The renewable energy hydrogen car: the future?

[Fakir]

Carbon hydride is even more efficient, oops we call it gasoline ^^

that's it you understood
instead of looking for means of storage of hydrogen which are dead weights as much to link it to carbon which is also an energy carrier and not a dead weight to transport the Solar Oxygen will make CO and H2 pure without nitrogen as much that there is sun

Our main point of disagreement comes down to this paragraph.
Making gasoline with wood and the sun is technically possible. If I take the efficiency of the energy chain of petrol produced with a Fischer-Tropsch process.
80% to produce C0 and H2 for electrolysis.
Fischer-Tropsch process: {(2n + 1) H20 + nCO -> CnH2n + 2 + nH2O} ~ 50%
Combustion engine 15%
Is 6%...

So yes, with Saudi oil it is cheaper….

[chatelot16]

comparing returns doesn't mean much

you're mainly talking about transport: a means of transport has no return

the yield is the ratio between energy consumed and useful energy supplied ... transport is not a useful energy

we can calculate the efficiency of the energy source at the wheel, but that is not enough to make comparisons

if we make a vehicle 2 times lighter without any improvement in efficiency we will save energy

if we make a performance improvement with a very heavy vehicle, we risk increasing the energy consumption to make the same transport

conventional liquid fuel is not the best in efficiency, but it allows the lightest and cheapest vehicles

and do not look at the current heavy and solid vehicle to support accidents at high speed ... it will be necessary to slow down and make the vehicle lighter

problem of comparison at the other end of the chain: electrolysis consumes electrical energy: expensive

solar gasifier consumes raw heat, easy to do by the sun

the same solar heat passed through a steam engine would be much less profitable to make electricity and electrolyze to make hydrogen

biomass carbon will never be enough as a single source of energy: as a source of carbon in my system there is much to be done

[Fakir]

comparing returns does not mean much, you are talking mainly about transport: a means of transport has no return

Indeed, I am talking about overall energy efficiency: Basically, for 1 W of renewable energy, how much I have left to drive in bulk!
With 150 w, we do 1 km
With H² I have a yield of 42%, I consume 360 ​​w at the start.
For "organic" gasoline, I have a yield of 6%, it takes 2500 w.

The strength of H² is its association with the fuel cell is their very important performance.
With 7 to 8 kg of H² we make 1000 km, it takes 50 to 70 liters of petrol to make the same distance.

McPhy technology stores 8 kg of H² in 80 liters and 115 kg.
Gasoline, in equivalent, represents 70 liters and 56 kg.
The differences in weight and volume are not obvious. In addition, the car is lighter, there is no internal combustion engine.

the solar gasifier consumes raw heat, easy to make by the sun the same solar heat spent in a steam engine would be much less profitable to make electricity and electrolyze to make hydrogen

The solar electricity conversion efficiency of a photovoltaic panel is 15%, the solar heat conversion efficiency reaches 50%. Do you have a performance study to help me think differently.

biomass carbon will never be enough as a single source of energy: as a source of carbon in my system there is much better to do

Unlike H² which as an energy vector is unlimited with complete French energy independence.


I am not saying that H² is the miraculous product. Today it is a renewable energy vector econological.

[chatelot16]

there is no meter on the sun, so the efficiency of a solar system doesn't matter

what matters is the price of the solar collector

the photovoltaic sensor is expensive and no miracle to reduce it: hence the price of electrolysis powered by photovoltaic

the price of mirrors for concentrating in an oven is much lower

the price of the solar gasifier placed in the hearth could be much lower than that of another thermal machine, steam or stirling

[Obamot]

In place of hydrogen there is liquid formic acid as well, for storing hydrogen.

Here, everything is a question of performance: in the Obamot topical, https://www.econologie.com/forums/electricit ... 10849.html the yield is 60%.

I'm glad someone is relaunching the hydrogen topics. And besides I ask myself the same questions as Fakir.

What are the brakes? It all depends on the metal used in the catalysis process (Christophe dixit). In the case of formic acid: cheap and abundant iron => the panacea ... slight problem, the yield is excellent, but 30% less good than with platinum or magnesium ... So is it to say that we need vehicles "lighter" by 30%, that too we know how to do not? Question: Are consumers ready to drive very light vehicles? It's not sure. Currently the experimental engine is just good at pushing a scooter. But if we had had such a performance at the beginning of aviation, and if we had given up, today there would not be reliable long haul and less fuel-intensive than a car per head of passenger on long distances ...

The topical on McPhy storage by magnesium hydride (houps I did not do it ...), will announce a yield of 97%. http://www.lejournaldesfluides.com/actu ... se-solide/
100 kg of H² is stored in 1 m3 at 10 bars.

I don't know, it looks very interesting. Magnesium is also a metal ...

After, the most interesting is the discontinuous production of H² all year round with sun or wind. Photovoltaic electricity is cheaper today than its nuclear cousin but its production is not on demand!
H² solar is the winning combo.

Wi WI...

Holds, about concrete there is more than three years to wait to see out of Toyota and Nissan hydrogen (which have put their efforts together on this development):
http://gas2.org/2010/05/13/toyota-may-o ... r-by-2015/

Don't they say how they plan to deal with supply issues? Dealers?

[Leo Maximus]

and you buy it or your hydrogen?

Or ? With us it is with Air Liquide (a French company: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_liquide)

Air Liquide produces 10 billion normal m3 of H2 per year. It is well known: no one knows how to manufacture or store this dangerous "explosive" .

2/3 of these 10 billion normal m3 of H2 per year are used to bring our dear beloved Diesel to the so-called anti-pollution standards . Such a quantity of hydrogen would already make it possible to run 10 million cars with a hydrogen PAC 10000 km per year here.

For more information on Air Liquide and hydrogen in France, contact Bernard Lledos, Director of Scientific Communication at Air Liquide.

With us, firefighters undergo a training course in hydrogen fires. Before the course, they are scared with everything they say. After the internship, they conclude that hydrogen is much less dangerous than gasoline.

[bamboo]

and you buy it or your hydrogen?

Or ? With us it is with Air Liquide (a French company: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_liquide)

Air Liquide produces 10 billion normal m3 of H2 per year. It is well known: no one knows how to manufacture or store this dangerous "explosive" .

2/3 of these 10 billion normal m3 of H2 per year are used to bring our dear beloved Diesel to the so-called anti-pollution standards . Such a quantity of hydrogen would already make it possible to run 10 million cars with a hydrogen PAC 10000 km per year here.

But the question is: how much energy does Air Liquide use to make 1m3 of H2?

[chatelot16]

I have no doubt that liquid air and other messers or lindes sell hydrogen! but at what price ... even without tax it's more expensive than petrol!

this hydrogen is useful when you really need it but not really a fuel

yes refining oil consumes hydrogen! if there is a production of hydrogen with renewable energy the most profitable to do would be to supply the refineries to stop consuming hydrogen made with methane

Similarly, supplying renewable hydrogen to all current consumers who buy pure hydrogen more expensive than fuel.

[Leo Maximus]

But the question is: how much energy does Air Liquide use to make 1m3 of H2?

This is a question to ask Bernard Lledos, Director of scientific communication at Air Liquide. I will not answer for him. He is a very nice person because he answered me on a Sunday and his email was a whole page.

E-mail address: bernard.lledos@airliquide.com

In response to Chatelot16, Bernard Lledos of Air Liquide had given me the price per kg of compressed hydrogen at 2008 bars in 350: around 4 euros.

In any case, the question: "The renewable hydrogen car: the future?" does not arise in France since here it is absolutely forbidden to run on hydrogen.

[Fakir]

In response to Chatelot16, Bernard Lledos of Air Liquide had given me the price per kg of compressed hydrogen at 2008 bars in 350: around 4 euros.

Exactly, the message I wanted to convey is that driving on H² is cheaper than driving on petrol even with taxes! much cheaper for better comfort (noise, autonomy and pollution).

In addition, H² EnR can be made with a little water and sun.

In any case, the question: "The renewable hydrogen car: the future?" does not arise in France since here it is absolutely forbidden to run on hydrogen.

Until now, the legislator was afraid of small H² bombs at 350 or 700 bars. McPhy technology stores H² at 10 bar.

Fortunately, our politicians ....