END: CIV towards the end of our civilization?

[Grelinette]

Hello,

Many points of view are interesting but I did not have the courage to read everything. I only read a few passages here and there!

However, it seems to me that there are no solutions to the problems mentioned because there is precisely no specific problem!

The problem, if I may say , it is precisely that the current man endeavors to divert and disturb everything and anything, and the rest with it.

No solution to a problem can be effective, as besides no system can be functional, if the human strives and devotes his energy to divert and divert this system for reasons that I do not arrive besides to explain, because in the end the consequences always turn to humans.

Regularly I hear politicians, economists or specialists on such or such subject explain that the solution lies in such action or change, or even take the example of a neighboring country which succeeded in raising the bar by such action, operation or mechanism ...

These propositions seem to me both true and false to the point that I conclude that Form counts more than Substance.

The best solution to a problem will not solve anything if it is not implemented with the desire to solve the problem it is supposed to solve, and, conversely, a bad solution will have more effect if everyone agrees that it works best.

It's probably a bit philosophical, but we all agree that man is a complex and paradoxical being, and often even incoherent, which is the very heart, the knot, if not the cause, of the problem of which he seeks to solve the small emerging and visible part.

[Ahmed]

Grelinette, you write:

No solution to a problem can be effective, as besides no system can be functional, if the human strives and devotes his energy to divert and divert this system for reasons that I do not arrive besides to explain, because in the end the consequences always turn to humans.

If you do not manage to explain this phenomenon, it is because you do not consider things by the good end: there is no diversion of an intrinsically good system because of unhealthy human impulses, there is a a system which acquires autonomy and which functions according to its determinisms and men who are blind and powerless in the face of these determinisms.
Men suffer the consequences of the system because they work for the system and for the sole purpose of the latter. The supreme trick of the system is to persuade men to the contrary!
Any system is utopian, in the sense that its internal mechanisms end up leading it to an impasse: the greater the success of a system, the more its end is inevitable and near, since it arouses more admiration, therefore zeal , on the part of its enforcement agents and that its contradictions become more crippling (but not more apparent).

[Ahmed]

I think it is possible to envisage the techno-science / economy couple or, which is another expression, temes / nemes, more or less like a molecule.
The two constituent elements interact with each other to tend towards expansion.
Providing additional capital allows for more powerful techniques which, in turn, generate a greater accumulation of financial value ...
A superficial view suggests (rightly so, by the way!) That this process has a natural "stop" which is the finitude of the earth's resources (which hardly affects the equations of economists, since they superbly ignore them!).

However, this is not where the stumbling block is located and molecular self-destruction results first from an internal mechanism, the destruction of the environment being only its consequence.
As seen above, an increase in technical potential results in an increase in Value (via goods), but these increases are not proportional.
On the one hand, more and more capital is needed to support technical development, on the other hand, if the resulting value produced increases in absolute value, it constantly decreases in relative value.
Each commodity sees its price fall in proportion to the increase in productivity and it is only because the total quantity of goods is brought to a much higher volume that a gain can be observed.
In other words, it is because human labor is always more expelled from the commodity that value, which it alone is capable of creating, collapses.

It is clear that this principal contradiction is at the origin of the current social and ecological crisis and that the connection between these two phenomena is very close.
For the moment, the palliative consists in injecting a future (but unrealistic) valuation to delay a systemic collapse which will occur as soon as the illusory aspect of the process can no longer be concealed.

[sen-no-sen]

Yes it is very well summarized.

[dede2002]

Yes it is summarized, but apparently not everyone understands.
But everyone is a minority that is led by the nose by the pressure of comfort ...
This minority is the main agents of the system (capitalist, sprawling, globalist, it has all the names), those who have the money, but there are the others, like the peasants threatened by the system via their own state, that I will always defend because I am one, and many others, like the Zapatistas (if I understood correctly, it is peasants who have recovered their land, two stages further than those who have not still lost?), the Amazon Indians, and many others who have put a finger in the system and are caught arm.

Between theory and practice there is a step, what do we do individually?
I think that if we fight the economy (inside the system because there is no visible exit door) by practicing mutual aid or barter, anything that can escape the control of the current state system manager, can we start to imagine a way out?

[Ahmed]

Dede, you write:

But everyone is a minority that is led by the nose by the pressure of comfort ...

It is not just a minority as you circumscribe it, it is in reality much wider, since we are all part of it (certainly, in various capacities and degrees).

I think that if we fight the economy (inside the system, because there is no visible exit door) by practicing mutual aid or barter, anything that can escape state control current, system manager, can we start to imagine a way out?

The paradox is that the divergent paths, such as those which you evoke, are at the same time illegal and at the same time beneficial for the system which represses them!
Everything that tends to be free, to the social bond is head-on opposed to the market and its "values" (sic), but also constitutes a safety valve without which the market could not function.
It is the obvious case of the charitable sector * (restaurants of the heart, etc ...) which comes to fulfill a function which is not lucrative enough to interest the market, but which is vital for the social cohesion which allows the market to continue!
In short, anything that can make things more bearable constitutes objective support for the system.
Two conclusions can be drawn:
- as a utopia, capitalism cannot survive in a "pure" state, ie as described by his zealots.
- one should not start from this observation to sink into the politics of the worst and give up all that can make humanity.

All the small enclaves which preserve, in one way or another, human dignity, not reduced to its caricature ofhomo economist, are all possibilities of survival. Immediate psychic over-life, as a surpassing of simple survival, over-life, as spaces from which a momentum can start, capable of bringing together in the face of generalized collapse

* This is also the case for the anthropological male / female division, which attributes (roughly, obviously) to men the production of goods and to women the reproduction and maintenance of the productive forces.