Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas (radicals) 200 times more powerful than CO2

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Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas (radicals) 200 times more powerful than CO2




by Christophe » 06/02/22, 11:55

Hydrogen and Greenhouse Effect: the current point.

We've been talking about it here and there for a few months, to centralize information about the greenhouse effect potential of hydrogen I create this topic, from an interesting comment of a video on Jean-Luc Perrier (those who don't know: search.php )



Baudouin of Crombrugghe

Be careful with hydrogen enthusiasm.

This was the subject of controversy this summer at the IPCC which made me change my mind.
Seeing oneself as "nº1" in hydrogen seems more like a political fad than the result of in-depth reflection.

The hydrogen engine does not pose any problem but the problems of sealing and leaks are underestimated and not declared.
Even the best tanks are never completely sealed: Those of hydrogen cars, for example, can be empty in a few weeks, even when the vehicle is stationary.

Perfect sealing does not exist with hydrogen, which is the smallest of molecules.

Hydrogen releases only water vapor when burned, which has prompted politicians to place their hopes in this new gas to fight climate change... But hydrogen itself contributes indirectly to global warming.
Hydrogen is a potent, short-lived, indirect greenhouse gas that is 200 times more potent than carbon dioxide when released, kilogram for kilogram.

Hydrogen reacts to form ground-level ozone, which also contributes to the greenhouse effect.
Hydrogen also breaks down into water vapor in the stratosphere, which also contributes to the greenhouse effect.
Hydrogen is such a potent indirect greenhouse gas that it COULD UNDERMINE THE CLIMATE BENEFITS OF DECARBONIZATION EFFORTS.
When these atmospheric effects are taken into account, the climate benefits of replacing fossil fuels with hydrogen become less obvious, even when the hydrogen is produced from renewable electricity.
... And this warning comes from scientists and not politicians.
The hydrogen sector risks a fiasco when voters realize that it is a form of green-washing.

Real observation:

Perfect sealing does not exist with hydrogen since it is the smallest molecule.
... And as hydrogen impacts 200x more than CO2, do the math: It only takes one stagnant tank out of 200 and gradually losing its hydrogen through leakage to equal the impact and cancel out all the climate advantage.
In short, this is reason enough to disqualify the hydrogen sector... and redirect the investments made in this sector towards more intelligent and truly protective of the climate.
There are enough other technologies (inertial, cryogenic, gravity storage,...) of energy buffers as an alternative.
https://www.revolution-energetique.com/ ... ue-le-co2/
https://www.euractiv.fr/section/energie ... limatique/
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by Christophe » 06/02/22, 12:57

An explanatory video in English on the problem of H2:

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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by sicetaitsimple » 06/02/22, 14:08

I have no opinion on the GWP of 200 mentioned in the article.

In contrast, we compare anything in terms of quantities:

- on the one hand CO2 resulting mainly from hydrocarbon combustion activities, at a rate of 30 to 40 GT/year (I am too lazy to look for the exact figure between CO2 and CO2 + other greenhouse gases)
- on the other hand, what would be the result of hydrogen leaks in the production, transport and distribution of hydrogen in a very "hydrogen" future.

I don't think hydrogen producers want to lose any part of their production via leaks, H2 networks are (for those that already exist, supplying refineries and other industries) particularly neat, if only for reasons of security.

In short, 100, 200 or 500 does not really matter because there will be very few leaks, otherwise there will be no development of more or less green hydrogen outside the sectors where it is the "hydrogen molecule", for its physico-chemical characteristics, and not its calorific value, which is sought.
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by Christophe » 06/02/22, 14:18

Well, all of this is on the assumption of a future hydrogen society (from renewables or fusion)... which would have replaced 100% of fossil fuels...

200 times is not nothing!

Hey, I hadn't noticed the EDF logo in the video : Lol:
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by sicetaitsimple » 06/02/22, 14:29

Christophe wrote:Well, all of this is on the assumption of a future hydrogen society (from renewables or fusion)... which would have replaced
200 times is not nothing!
:


You did not read well, neither the article nor my prose!
200 is nothing, because it only applies to H2 leaks, which will be minimal except to condemn the deployment of H2 outside of its non-substitutable uses.
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by Christophe » 06/02/22, 14:34

If so...I read and understood...thank you for taking me for an idiot! : Cry:

So do this table corner calculation: replace 100% current fossil joules with H2 joules...

And suppose let's say 1% leaks, multiply by 200...and you'll have a CO2 equivalent...that won't be NOTHING compared to the replaced CO2 emissions!!

Something else ?
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by sicetaitsimple » 06/02/22, 14:48

Christophe wrote:If so...I read and understood...thank you for taking me for an idiot! : Cry:

So do this table corner calculation: replace 100% current fossil joules with H2 joules...

And suppose let's say 1% leaks, multiply by 200...and you'll have a CO2 equivalent...that won't be NOTHING compared to the replaced CO2 emissions!!

Something else ?

1% leak on a hydrogen network? It seemed huge to me. But let's...
But I'm not going to multiply by 200, but by 10, because the density of H2 is about 20 times lower than that of CO2, and the GWP is reduced to kg.
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by Christophe » 06/02/22, 14:48

Are you dumb or are you dumb?

You have to think massively!
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by sicetaitsimple » 06/02/22, 15:51

Well then, corner of the table...

1MWh (thermal) with fossil fuel, I'll do it for you at the value of fuel oil, around 260kgCO2/MWh, just for combustion (excluding upstream extraction, transport, refining), we must go up to 300kg/MWh in total.
1MWh H2 is 30kg of H2. With 1% leaks (which I contest because it is not compatible with safety or the development of H2), that would be 0,3kg/MWh, or with a GWP of 200 a CO2 equivalent of 60kg/MWh.

PS: I specify that I am not, on the contrary, a fierce supporter of the generalized deployment of H2, contrary to what my posts above might suggest!
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Re: Hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas 200 times more powerful than CO2




by Christophe » 06/02/22, 16:15

Bin here it was not so complicated... you see, in mass it is easier! It's clear and clean!

So the advantage is all the same to H2 with a factor of 5 in order of magnitude!

Especially since: it's a little less than 30 kg and fuel cells have better efficiency than heat engines... but the complicated storage efficiency of H2 weighs down the overall cycle efficiency "of the well at the wheel...

So in the end it's probably a big hit with liquid fuels...or even a little less good! We must have a topic on it on the forum...

It remains to be seen what the realistic % of leaks is...I just asked Baudouin de Crombrugghe

1% doesn't seem that big to me.
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