Insulation batting renovation inhabited attic

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bidouille23
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Insulation batting renovation inhabited attic




by bidouille23 » 24/03/13, 14:42

Bonjour,

View images that speak more than long speeches here is photos of a site on which I last advice and guide to make a renovation of the best way (in my opinion the best way under renovation)

It is therefore here a renovation, it's a roof that does not have firewall rain so you have to leave a layer of air with the least 3 cm below battens and batten so that the moisture can escape naturally through roof vents, so let the wood dry and therefore not cause any disappointment wood rotting ...

The principle here, and elsewhere, is to map the high-density wood panel, which are wood fiber panels densified 250 Kg / m3.

Here they are Hydro panels that can serve as cons-ventement in OSB (wood frame), and instead the film _pluie visor during a single roof from the outside (say sharking).

The panels are therefore plated directly on the underside of the rafters (here it's true * 80 60 mm rafters) so there is an area of ​​80 mm blade on the underside of roof.
The periphery of the panels for sealing a seal of mastic is laid, and a seal of mastic in the groove as tongue (with the top tongue as in a cladding of course, so that the water would come hypotéthique to fall if a leak was coming to appear would be guided to the roof foot and then got on the outside).

In the situation shown here, the wall, the junction purlin and rafters, there had braces, they have not been removed but merely pierced by 3.2 cm of holes for ventilation.



In this photo are can see the dense wood panels (in light brown background), and these cleats * 50 50 are screwed to enable the grip box boards (here the board in Douglas 25 cm order have the final 26 2.2 cm wadding + cm dense wood insulation boards, so 28 0.04 cm lambda insulation) for injection wadding (batting should be instilled in maximum boxes 80 cm wide to avoid not have too much compaction, maximum height of the boxes is 6 6 m m but is limit ...).
The rafters * 50 50 are so fixed in the original rafters * 80 60 of the frame in and grabs hence the dense wood panels sandwich.

Image

A view more ready, have the seal chews see white on breakdowns. (There are now mastics VOC type SIGA Primur is an example of brand) .We also see the chalk line that will serve the lines laid metal which receive furs)

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Fur posed with the early break of the membrane.
The membrane had a transmittance of steam corresponding to the transmission fiber panels of wood to conform to the migration of the air loaded with water, in order to tell a system breathable (or breathable;)).
The principle is to have an air permeability of growing from the inside to the outside so as not to slow down the migration of air loaded with water.

The membrane is caught by cons cleats douglas 25 50 * mm, in theory it is recommended against the cross battens with a first layer of battens or strip of OSB 9mm 45 mm wide, all 50 cm and then re -contrelater in the sense furs, personally I know it goes with the injection provided for 50 kg / batting m3 so I take particular care to stretch the membrane so that it does not deform, which would prevent them poses dubbing (here is the fermacell, but it also applies to the plasterboard).
Advantage of the counter battens is that it is a technical sheath for the passage of electrical cables without piercing the membrane.

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here a detail with metal hanger, and a roof window.
The roof window is posed unretouched of the frame so the insulation on the outskirts here will be small evil fortunately.

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see here have a wool layer of wood on the edge of the roof window and the corner of the window pieces of heavy wood panels for sealing against the rafters * 80 60.
It lacks a bit of wood wool insulation cut into triangle so as not to hinder the break dubbing.

Image



The finished face, did not see because of the light vapor barrier paused in the doorway of the roof window, brake (yellow) is (for purchase too fast because the owner of another kind and has a much less important than the transmission therefore more waterproof membrane, but most do not support the injection of wadding from its low resistance to tearing, but agree vapor transmission side, instead of throwing or sell so the remains, they are used in some places).
Also see the right foot with a yellow vapor barrier too).

Image



Wall side.

here is a window frame, too big windows over the opening, suddenly little insulation, better to lose a little light insulation, but this is like that so you have to make do.
Personally I would have asked recessed installation and not apply, as here, in order to provide open with an angle the future dubbing and therefore both have a sufficient insulation dose and higher light in the room.
here the expanding foam will be injected to the isolated edges of the windows at best .and against the wall and top and bottom type PIR foam panels (with a very low lambda allowing to have maximum isolation for a minimum thick).

Image

The same wall with the membrane, as fiberfill insufflation here on 120 mm thick.

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here details wood frame for walls with .Ont box and spacers also see Excelsior falls for clogged the last hole so that the wadding not escape there.

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Following wall (sorry for cons days not practical to see well, but I do not have flash on my phone;)).
The horizontal brace are used to maintain the vertical pillars when insufflation.
The amount are 25 * 50mm but can also be done by 50 50 * mm, and in the scope not have added or intermediate apuis to obtain hard and not flexible wall;) ..

in metal frame it is the same thing attention to the worn if you do not want to have a wall or partition that deforms when you rely on it (generally in single amount of 48 mm the maximum load is 2.0m plus long have double the amount, limit 2.5 m, or have put supports that reres the amounts to the wall, with scrap it's simple have takes metal sole and made angles not simple folding that is crimped with the crimping pliers special metal profile) ..

Image

Instead of cellulose wadding and for laying the easiest shot, may have put some wood wool, seen here that the site is self renovation break time is not a concern then, wadding is therefore cheaper ...

You will find at Kiloutou eg carding machines for rent, care the carder must be infused cotton wool and not just blow, but it is marked above (or the user instructions).

I would complete this subject when insufflation to explain how (it's simple) have blown.


In hope this helps some of you, and do not hesitate to ask questions if necessary.
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by Christophe » 24/03/13, 14:56

Image here is the kind of testimony we would like to (re) see more often about forums... (I know times of crisis are more about individualism when it should be quite the opposite ...)

So a word: Bravo!

Yes, if you could show us the rest of the site (up finishes that would be great)!
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 24/03/13, 17:02

There's nothing Christophe;), I'm still under the elbow (my house to come with the program, demolition, frame, stone masonry, wood frame for an extension, zinc and slate roofing, exterior roofing insulation, etc etc until the hemp and lime plaster;), I have a pretty good command of all these techniques and I am a fervent defender of "do it yourself" :)).

So for the future I have planned to do the same as what I just did.

It is not evident renovates have already told you a lot of time here, because all the circumstances are not the same in this site or I help the owner to make the right choices (those I would put work for myself actually), there'll be no other different technical solution according to the documents.

The insulating foam panels lambda 0.025 just happened so they will be placed in the stairwell (the stairs are not going to be removed unfortunately, so he do with), suddenly the place is not limited to eat the path of the stairs, in the same bathroom, they are small view I favor a thin insulation but R + = 1.6 0.8 wholesale wall or R = 2.4 app which is not great but is a good compromise.
Pictures are coming ...

And DRC thermal correction coated hemp and lime 8 cm (6 of plaster body and 2 cm finishing).

The times of "crisis" (it is still necessary to define what a crisis is;)), are precisely there to change the situation and ensure that things change ... It is the air of change :) And it do us a change of air;) ....

To complete the idea of ​​this project, the owner has opted for full autonomy or, 300 m² of solar panels, a heat pump water / water takes on a calorie source may 30 app deep of drilling instead of m 100 usually for conventional drilling, and cleaning water basins.
The concept of this house is an example for me to follow as it can be ... and I am happy and proud to help power (a former client who became a friend, and hast remembered me asked for my help following the work I've done to him and that all the other craftsmen who had made the remark work well done;)).

I am also for the exchange of best addresses and tips for having riquiqui price, I also order materials for other auto manufacturer to make them enjoy my price, ask them anything in exchange for it does not cost me anything I do not see why I would make money on their backs.

the end suppliers sell, it makes money, self-builders are happy, and me too because I have rendered services .... That's the new world and that is where we can we out ... you have to choose these providers to ultimately be that's true but that's how some make disappear that take people for pigeons ...
The crisis is not necessarily a bad thing depending on how we approach it;) ...

I say it is now no longer put as photos and comment on this story giving guides that I hope will be useful.

I remain available for any advice, also in MP (money is not the sinews of war for me far from it ...). On the other hand I ask specific questions as much as possible in order to simplify my process. task;), as andré said in the subject line burner "giving everything raw all the information does not allow you to understand;), you need a part of personal investment ...

cordially



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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 31/03/13, 16:08

Hello,

Following my visit to the site here is a few more pictures:


here a detail of dog sitting:

Image

Viewed from another angle

Image

Here bathroom with Seltan, PU foam insulation or PIR lambda 0.023, funny ç'est I cut a piece to see, and I felt a kind butane smell, as in the refill cartridges for lighter, it would be expanded this foam to gas? or it is the smell of the reaction of the foam? I'll take a piece for the burn see what happens ....
Well if it's a nice product as uses, alu alu color face, a white aluminum face, and the whole is quite rigid, even quite hard actually.


The tape is not the aluminum but it'll do for the surface used ...

The amount are 25 50 * douglas, insulation and therefore plated on the wall and mounting the press, they are fixed at the head and feet in a low sole 25 50 * and also taken up by piece on the crosspiece serve for plating of crawling in the middle ankle hit prevents movement as possible.

Image


Here a photo I had taken at the end of last week to show how it should not paused windows :) :

Image

not to mention the horizontality between the two window that is absolutely not present (2 cm gap between right and left, so you have to take the high side and pulled horizontally to the tablet slightly overlaps the frame the window, otherwise the reverse forces have reported making a piece to fill the day that will be present, or else put the tablet along the slope it is a choice), short these windows are especially asked to apply so he n ' there is no room to put an insulation .In this case it is better to mount the recessed window in the opening.

Small detail and more when the window assembly are including pause band quie be chosen according to the space filled, including the band width are variable to choose from, and the thickness is variable expansion, the more it expands unless it is waterproof, it is marked on the boxes in theory have made sure to stay on a low expansion so she has a tight role has water, a little dilated they are waterproof looks only, then it was not used much.
Also positions them leaving the app 5 mm to the naked outside the window frame to create a backer, suddenly the silicone seal or mastic will be well done and not just a net that does not care.

here have insulating foam panels see the tape between panels and taped on the membrane impedes vapor crawling and ceiling.
The mastic is added around the piece of wood, the floor and walls (the walls were not removed it is a choice that I could not but be with, personally I would have broken to redo everything).
The main idea is to be able to spend with a pencil in front of the brake steam throughout the entire house without obstacle, giving a completely united pregnant, suddenly no leakage;) ...


behind the corner brackets as the panels are taped together.

Image

Here detail of the window with pieces of insulation between the two, a shot chewed between the foam panels and window frame.

Have see as well as at the lintel there is no place to put the insulation that the fear of outright pudding is a thermal bridge insured, so it'll be just a piece of polythene (waterproof like foam board) for the control air.
and on the side panels will come from fat (refined) foam, and all that will be taped glued together.

Image


Following the next issue
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by Christophe » 31/03/13, 16:26

Jolie wallpaper !! : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

Here bathroom with Seltan, PU foam insulation or PIR lambda 0.023, ç'est funny I cut a piece to see, and I felt a kind butane smell


I confirm ... I felt the same thing on my site this winter:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/chantier-d ... 12139.html

For me it is not a butane smell but an unpleasant chemical odor (rotten egg gas and between H2S) ca ... fortunately not last long ..

For there is sulfur in it!

ps: I see a downside: the splayed windows constitute wicked thermal bridges... unfortunately watching your new chassis, you have not kept thick to isolate on that side ... :|

One solution would be to "cut" a few cm in the stone wall ... to place at least this thickness of insulation ... it's a big job, boring, but I think it must be done ...
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 02/04/13, 20:09

Hello ,

Christopher, I said that I did not work on the site :) I help the owner make choices and I accompany him to explain how he should do his work ...
in absolute treated for the problem of thermal bridges of window conflagrations, the solution when possible is to change the window and downright lay flush.

Here not possible, the craftsman is retired and they are custom manufacturing arfff more none is level and almost all have leaks at bottom, Because it is mounted above the mastic, in short c ' is somewhat completely anything, neither did nor to do ....

As for cutting the stones, the idea would be good if there was not a package of "blue stone", they called it like that here, it's shale I think, super hard, you smoke them forest even of very good quality, in one minute maximum, you emerge a round nickel forest ....

A friend bought disk'm saying top quality cut of critters in the genre 2 pm disk was dead ...
He ended up going on a granite quarry chopper and an old record, held him still good and yours, only problem is that it's for a grinder disc 230mm, and in the little corner and corner beside the bay I would say that the idea is not applicable unless disassembling the windows (there are at 9 between drc and confused 1er floor, including some pretty hefty).

So it was my turn to say welcome to the real world), renovation makes you especially as you can, and if in addition to other craftsmen have done anything so you pay the broken pots, and you the tinkers or you would not have caused ....

This is rageants but that's how ...

I saw her yesterday and I rejected a look was all the windows, basically everywhere 2.5 cm insulation pass on some have come to 3 cm, which is the minimum, so this is not good great but it is not worse ....

But I'm on your ideal advice would have been to have as much insulation
together in this project as I said heating is provided by a heat pump water / water with pumping out an underground source and 40 few meters so he'll be s losses around windows but heating will be virtually free between solar panel (300 sQM) and CAP, so it's not worse ...

So the big board in there to remember is that when did ask windows must especially think of insulation that going to follow and left what to put, and thereby pause the compromise on the glazing dimension more small and not on the large windows in skipping over the insulation ....

And do not hesitate to paused a levels throughout lez sides of the windows before you pay anything in addition to 30% as the craftsman which to ask before beginning work (no more than 30% by against) .. ..
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by Christophe » 03/04/13, 12:47

bidouille23 wrote:Christopher, I said that I did not work on the site :) I help the owner make choices and I accompany him to explain how he should do his work ...
in absolute treated for the problem of thermal bridges of window conflagrations, the solution when possible is to change the window and downright lay flush.


Ah it's for your owner ok ... I had skipped this info lol ... but why does he not come and participate directly? The more the merrier ... the fewer calories were lost lol ...

The chassis nevertheless seem not nine? Foam apparent PU, no finish ... so I thought seeing the pictures they dated this site!

I do not know if this is the solution for changing the openings of sizes that do not require an administrative thing (at least in some municipalities)?

If nothing is done at this level: the big worry, especially if designed as a bedroom, is the risk of condensation (important) of these conflagrations not isolated ... if they pass under the dew point ... I exactly the same worries about my amounts of internal rolling shutter on my site of the moment: https://www.econologie.com/forums/chantier-d ... 12139.html

Before insulating the walls that does not condensing there ... after that condensed exclusively here ...
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 03/04/13, 20:34

Hello ,

Christopher, this is not my owner, is a former client who hast called for me ugly in these choices and I guide it to face its work.
It has a lot of stuff to do I do not think it is really available to come here more, at least not right away I think ...
(I talk to him anyway) ...

The chassis nevertheless seem not nine? Foam apparent PU, no finish ... so I thought seeing the pictures they dated this site!


They are actually nine evil paused there two years), PU foam just be the entourage short after finishing come along well ...

I do not know if this is the solution for changing the openings of sizes that do not require an administrative thing (at least in some municipalities)?


for me it would have been the solution, but in this case, they are mix aluminum / PVC frames, custom make so you have to forget the change view prices Bestio ...

In terms of dew point, it should do view I was offered the option conflagration covered by the more waterproof vapor barrier that hinders steam (membrane remaining (s) parts, so that the steam should mainly passed through the place where it's easier (this is pretending steam as electric power, etc. etc.). Then it comes to stone wall with cob 60cm as sealing, the wall have wholesale insulation of R = original 0.8 so with 2.5 cm of insulation (the thinner, the thicker it goes a 4cm), it gives roughly R = 1.8, making it more than if condensation it will be in the stone wall it will only slightly soften the mud which is very dry (too even), then during the summer the wall going up to temperature and releasing water on the outside, and so on all year ... This is not the cinderblock;), it breathes a stone wall when you did not make him joint s concrete ...
Otherwise imagine the result with hemp and lime plaster, this would be the disaster in a few years ...

So actually I do not absolutely me for condensation, especially that in addition it did not vmc double flow so all the windows and bay are equipped with regulatory breakdown, which promotes the steam discharge also (and it is humidity sensitive;)) ...

What bothers me is the weak point of the insulation above it creates is a shame but not harmful ...

In the bathroom the vmc hygro, evacuate water vapor, and anyway, whatever the room in case he counselor open window at least 10 minutes every day, it avoids many problems .. .

The big difference between tone and the wall there is the same sealing wall (knowing that in addition a légèrment wet mud is better than a cob too dry;)), it is why in renovating each case is a special case ... (this is also why it is a job apart too;) ...), but side sealing wall you totally stressed out about you ...

there's no problem there as aa solutions (yet he must choose the right



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