Hot digressions on cold fusion

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raymon
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by raymon » 30/04/13, 07:45

Read on another forum:
"The structure of scientific revolutions"

Greenwin on e-cat world cited the work of Thomas Kuhn and in particular his masterpiece: "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"

on the CNAM website a reading sheet sums up his point of view very well, and the parallel with the aberrant situation in the field of Cold Fusion is absolutely obvious.

http://www.cnam.fr/servlet/com.univ....=1295877018064

It was he who popularized the expression "paradigm shift".
His vision is that science advances by progress interrupted by ideological ruptures, "paradigm shifts".


At this point normal science, as a community and as a corpus of practices and knowledge, is challenged by anomalies that it cannot resolve.
She rejects them and ignores them.
Then some try to explain them in the existing framework, and fail.
There a new, heretical paradigm is proposed which resolves the anomaly
The installed scientific community rejects this explanation, ridicules it
Finally the new paradigm is accepted because it explains things better.



When we read the review we understand that:

the new paradigm will not convince simply because the old one does not work. This new paradigm must offer a complete and coherent vision of the world, which works much better than the previous one. This is where the experimental results without credible theoretical explanations cannot convince ... and this contrary to the mythology of the scientific method which affirms that the facts should prevail over the theories ... vision of bisounours of science.
It is thus clearly said that one cannot win against the old paradigm with evidence. Installed science chooses the facts that suit it, and rejects those that disturb it. In the end, the two paradigms are incomparable (in the algebraic sense) because each one chooses its criteria which suits it. I thus saw with what bad time one demanded a reproducibility with cold fusion, when the hypotheses of artifact of measurement were not even checked. in a scientific world of bisounours, a fact reproduced 2 or 3 times is the proof of an anomaly, and cancels any negative result. It is not a contest of evidence, but a dialogue of the deaf, where political power is more important than evidence.
The new paradigm can only be accepted if it offers a huge advantage to its supporters, if it works much better than the previous one We understand that for cold fusion, as long as industrial applications did not seem possible, the evidence does not had no interest and no chance of convincing.
It appears (and all those who know the scientific community inside and have not lost their souls know it) that scientific debates are very far from debates about evidence, but are human battles, of power, political and ideological battles, with the key to very prosaic issues of power, money, ego. This is where I make the link with Roland Benabou's theory on the "mutual assured delusion", "the collectively assured illusion".



if not the book, the review should be read.

This completes well the works of Nassim Nicholas Taleb on black swans, and the articles of Roaldn benabou.


Today 07:44 nothing new but good a little reading does not hurt.

Fortunately, Galileo did not follow the consensus of his time, because the earth would not have turned! "(Claude Allégre) I don't like Allègre but it's not bad.
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by Obamot » 30/04/13, 11:18

Obviously, we can continue to pretend to be a victim forever!

It's more seller, BUT:

No one has seen anywhere the slightest scientific argument, in one way or another contesting the current theoretical model (from Rossi, Naudin or anyone), nor an explanation that would explain the how of the why said model would have been mistaken.
There are certainly other hypotheses, but it is up to those who put them to prove other theories: and then again, it would still be necessary that they are compatible with current knowledge.

The situation is therefore diametrically opposite to what was happening in the time of Galileo (false example taken too often) since, unlike his time, we are in the opposite of a situation where ignorance would make its law as being the rule (thanks to his fight, by the way, so it's a bit cynical to take such an example to the contrary). As proof that nowadays, everything that has been done so far can be called into question in just one day, even if HUGE interests are at stake:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/effet-memo ... 12450.html

You can see that the very day this work was made public in Asia, the info was taken up and validated here by a research institute, and published in the wake on the official website of a government! If there was a "conspiracy" it would be on a global scale! So where would it be? There we have the proof that not. And if there is any in certain areas, it would be extremely fragile these days!

I'm not saying that any fight of this type would be illegitimate, I'm just saying why in this case it would be WRONGLY PLACED (note the conditional).

Because finally, if there was possibly error or doubt on the said model, still we would have to tell us and prove to us Why cell phones work, how to we arrive in computer science at the threshold of sub-micron particles, and how to Would it be that the study on the quantum yields of CCD / CMOS sensors continually leads to further improvements in their performance ...? IF NOT THANKS TO THE SAID MODEL.

Would they ALL have a bowl not possible that would allow them to advance in all these areas by empiricism? Would the whole industry relying on this model be wrong?

I count on you to explain Raymon to us in depth.
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by raymon » 30/04/13, 11:40

Because finally, if there was possibly an error on it, we would have to tell us why cell phones work, how we arrive in computer science at the threshold of sub-micron particles, and how is it that the study on quantum yields CCD / CMOS sensors constantly lead to further improvements in their performance ...?

The financial interests for the improvement of such a laptop are not the same as if overnight the energy became almost free and therefore it is not surprising that it gets a little stuck. You talk about improving an existing system. I remind you that NASA for example is actively working on the subject.

No one has seen anywhere the slightest scientific argument, in one way or another contesting the current theoretical model (from Rossi, Naudin or anyone), nor an explanation that would explain the how of the why said model would have been mistaken.

They have something that perhaps works but does not give a scientific explanation of how it works Rossi or Naudin are not physicists but engineers. There have always been scientific theories which later proved to be false. I don't see why it would be different today.

On this we are still waiting!
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by Obamot » 30/04/13, 12:50

raymon wrote:The financial interests for the improvement of such a laptop are not the same as if overnight the energy became almost free and therefore it is not surprising that it gets a little stuck.

Why not, since this is already the case!

First you are totally wrong on the principle of "free"What is solar thermal / photovoltaic, if not "Free energy"? After what costs it is what there is around (infrastructure, maintenance, distribution, security, etc: what is / would not be otherwise, in any other energy source ...)

Then: no, "If" ... etc are not itself, I'm waiting for an in-depth explanation from Raymon. Not just "dreams" of an ideal and idyllic world (the carrot is indeed that everyone "would like», But being a salesman is not enough if there is nothing behind ...) Otherwise ... There is no scientific debate it stinks of the stupid trap, the stakes of money to find pigeons of "donors" (beinwoui, not "investors" since precisely there will never be a return on investment ..).

raymon wrote:You talk about improving an existing system. I remind you that NASA for example is actively working on the subject.

Another perfect syllogism - what would it already exist, and which would work in the matter: nothing nothing! So nothing to "improve" since that would imply having obtained a result (the cordless telephone has already proven billions of times that it works, without any possible challenge) - then what they are looking for is not that (already disputed and demonstrated here, and you come back with that without any new element). And as soon as they find what they would eventually plan, it could only be compatible with the current theoretical model, impossible to do otherwise. So hello the earth: dreams gone, goodbye cows cows, pigs, brood ...

Conclusion, as usual: why not put your energy into defending programs which "work" and which do not make the green people look like weirdos!

raymon wrote:They may have something that works but

Be honest, it works - or not - but in between "perhaps"does not exist as result. With "ifs" we can speculate on anything and catch any gogo.

raymon wrote:There have always been scientific theories which later proved to be false. I don't see why it would be different today.

Precisely there, there is nothing scientific, nothing demonstrated. There it is not a question of theory but - of hypotheses already invalidated for a long time - and which would de facto suggest to us that the theoretical model would be false:
AND WELL THERE IS WORK : Mrgreen: : Cheesy:
It is as if engineers wanted to prove to physicists why the waterline limit would be an error when no boat, in perfect condition which respects it, has sunk so far!


And until proven otherwise, it is the current model that applies: very good indeed, since everything that refers to it works ..!

raymon wrote:On this we are still waiting!

Go show yourself (to be polite), it's been a long time since nobody expected anything more.
Well I stop there, I would have hoped for a serious explanation. There we start again in the same perpetual shameless reasoning:

if ... then ... etc ... blah-blah-blah ... etc ...
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by Obamot » 30/04/13, 13:23

To finish with the nut reasoning:

raymon wrote:Read on another forum:
At this point normal science, as a community and as a corpus of practices and knowledge, is challenged by anomalies that it cannot resolve.
She rejects them and ignores them.
Then some try to explain them in the existing framework, and fail.
There a new, heretical paradigm is proposed which resolves the anomaly
The installed scientific community rejects this explanation, ridicules it
Finally the new paradigm is accepted because it explains things better.

Proof that no, the notion of "quantum yield"in photographic sensors is even the perfect reverse illustration: since here, something intangible and uncontrollable has been understood, implemented and controlled, failing to explain it in an absolute way!

And this is even still the case to some extent for electricity! And de facto the atom.
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raymon
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by raymon » 30/04/13, 13:40

To finish with the nut reasoning:


Moderated by Flytox. It would be necessary that some limit overflows, invective, penny heard unhealthy, warrior spirit it is I who am right . This is of no interest to the reader (understand chi..t for the reader)

Let those who find a "good" or a bad reason to do battle / get rid of it do so by Personal Message. Thank you.
:frown: :P
Note: The Econology shop does not supply Kalachnikovs. : Mrgreen:
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by elephant » 30/04/13, 15:46

You two are off topic and your discussion is starting to smell bad.

The theme of the subject is to follow the evolutions or non-evolutions of Rossi's activities while awaiting the Grail :D

Thank you for creating another subject such as "science and false science" where you can express yourself in complete freedom, just to leave room for developments in the subject's topicality.
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by Alain G » 30/04/13, 18:19

raymon wrote:
To finish with the nut reasoning:


Moderated by Flytox. It would be necessary that some limit overflows, invective, penny heard unhealthy, warrior spirit it is I who am right . This is of no interest to the reader (understand chi..t for the reader)

Let those who find a "good" or a bad reason to do battle / get rid of it do so by Personal Message. Thank you.
:frown: :P
Note: The Econology shop does not supply Kalachnikovs. : Mrgreen:



Well, I also saw the message from the psychologist in your night to you which was erased of course and it is unfortunately still Raymon who passes for the bad guy !!!
: Evil:

I should have copied it! 8)

Will he succeed in locking out another subject?
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by Flytox » 30/04/13, 19:07

Hello Alain

Alain G wrote:
raymon wrote:
To finish with the nut reasoning:


Moderated by Flytox. It would be necessary that some limit overflows, invective, penny heard unhealthy, warrior spirit it is I who am right . This is of no interest to the reader (understand chi..t for the reader)

Let those who find a "good" or a bad reason to do battle / get rid of it do so by Personal Message. Thank you.
:frown: :P
Note: The Econology shop does not supply Kalachnikovs. : Mrgreen:



Well, I also saw the message from the psychologist in your night to you which was erased of course and it is unfortunately still Raymon who passes for the bad guy !!!
: Evil:

I should have copied it! 8)

Will he succeed in locking out another subject?


Whatever the "good" or "bad" reason, the invectives / insults are too many. I remind you that Raymond's "adversary" was also moderated on an "equivalent" overflow in another subject.

On many posts, there is at least one who feels invested with a mission (find out why? : Shock: ) and who plays the knights righting wrongs, and who goes on a crusade at the slightest "unscientific detail" that exceeds .... Dedeleco, there is a new generation! : Mrgreen:
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elephant
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by elephant » 30/04/13, 19:07

Someone wrote:

The Econology shop does not supply Kalashnikovs


Pity..... : Cry:

Image
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