Everything is not relative: faster than light neutrinos

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vinzman
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Everything is not relative: faster than light neutrinos




by vinzman » 26/09/11, 22:40

Einstein claimed that nothing could go faster than light and here is how the large hadron collider helped to contradict this claim dating from 1905:

Neutrinos that go faster than light? This seems to indicate the measurements carried out by a team of researchers led by Dario Autiero, a CNRS researcher, as part of the international OPERA experiment. This surprising result was published on Friday 23 September 2011 at 2 a.m. (Paris time) on ArXiv (1) and presented the same day at 16 p.m. during a seminar at CERN, in Geneva, which is broadcast online.

With the theory of special relativity stated in 1905, Einstein had notably proved that nothing could exceed the speed of light in a vacuum. However, more than a century later, after three years of very high precision measurements and complex analyzes, the OPERA experiment (2) reports a completely unexpected result: the neutrinos arrive at the Gran Sasso with a small but significant advance compared to the time that the light would have taken to make the same course in the vacuum.

The OPERA experiment is dedicated to the observation of a neutrino beam produced by CERN accelerators in Geneva and detected 730 km further from the underground laboratory of Gran Sasso in Italy. Light travels this distance in 2,4 milliseconds. However, the OPERA experiment was able to measure neutrinos arriving at Gran Sasso 60 nanoseconds earlier. In other words, on a "long distance run" of 730 km, the neutrinos cross the finish line 20 meters ahead of hypothetical photons which would have traveled the same distance.

“We have set up a device between CERN and Gran Sasso allowing us to synchronize at the nanosecond level and measuring the distance between the two sites to within 20 centimeters. These measurements present low uncertainties and a statistic such that we place great confidence in our results, "explains Dario Autiero, CNRS researcher at the Institute of Nuclear Physics of Lyon (IPNL). “So we're looking forward to comparing our measurements with those from other experiments, because there is nothing in our data to explain why we seem to be observing speeding neutrinos. These results are based on the observation of more than 15 neutrinos.

"This result is completely unexpected," says Antonio Ereditato, of the University of Bern and spokesperson for the OPERA experiment. “Long months of research and verification did not allow us to identify an instrumental effect explaining the result of our measurements. If the researchers participating in the OPERA experiment will continue their work, they are impatient to compare their results with other experiments so as to fully assess the nature of this observation ”.

Until now, the speed of light has always been considered an insurmountable limit. If not, it could open completely new theoretical perspectives. Given the enormous impact that such a result could therefore have on physics, independent measures are necessary so that the observed effect can be refuted or formally established. This is why the researchers of the OPERA collaboration wished to open this result to a broader examination on the part of the community of physicists.

The OPERA experiment was launched in 2006 to study the rare transformations (oscillations) of muon neutrinos into tau neutrinos. One of these oscillations was observed in 2010, testifying to the unique capacity of this experiment in the detection of almost elusive signals from tau neutrinos.

Four CNRS laboratories are involved in the OPERA experiment:

* the Lyon Institute of Nuclear Physics (CNRS / Claude Bernard-Lyon 1 University),
* the Hubert Curien Multidisciplinary Institute (CNRS / University of Strasbourg),
* the Linear Accelerator Laboratory (CNRS / Université Paris-Sud 11) which participated until 2005,
* the Annecy le Vieux Laboratory of particle physics (CNRS / University of Savoie).

Notes

1. These results were published on Friday September 23 on the open archive site ArXiv
2. The OPERA detector was designed and used by a team of researchers based in Germany, Belgium, Korea, Croatia, France, Israel, Italy, Japan, Russia, Switzerland and Turkey. This experience represents a complex scientific enterprise, carried out thanks to the expertise of a large number of scientists, engineers, technicians and students, and to the strong involvement of the various actors in this project. Special mention should be made of the LNGS / INFN and the CERN laboratories, as well as the significant financial support from Italy and Japan and the significant contributions from Germany, Belgium, France and Switzerland. . This scientific cooperation currently brings together some 160 researchers from 30 different institutions across 11 countries.

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Scientific Research National Center


http://www.notre-planete.info/actualites/actu_2955_.php

http://www.cnrs.fr/
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by dedeleco » 26/09/11, 23:28

It's a penny: 20m by 750m !!
it is a speed distribution around the speed of slightly eccentric light.
The transmitter and the detector are rather slow (microseconds !!) so
A huge job to measure neutrinos and these 750Km to within 20cm !!!!!!

So possible errors and independent verifications by other laboratories necessary !!!

the article:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/ ... 9.4897.pdf
http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pd ... 0437v3.pdf

Relativity does not remain false, the maximum authorized speed increases by this inch!
May be the effect of the passage through the land of neutrinos which slightly changes this maximum speed ????????????????????????
Effect of Earth's gravitation ??? or terrestrial rotation ??
which shows that the departure and reception standards do not have the same speed orientation (surface speed of the order of 40000Km / 24xcos (latitude) and which therefore introduces a correction ????

We can trust physicists to find all kinds of possible explanations.
Some even planned it before the measurement !!!!!!
Quantum effect !!
possible, given that the collapse of the wave function has an infinite speed, like a lot of what is not measurable in quantum mechanics (without information or energy)
An example :
http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pd ... 4980v1.pdf

If true, it is necessary to complicate a little the physics of particles and neutrinos, already very complex, and to measure with this precision the speed of all particles without mass or has very low mass, in particular those of the various neutrinos !!!!
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by Christophe » 27/09/11, 13:15

A few years ago an experiment had shown that when one put 2 particles in contact, since one moved away from them and that one influenced one, then the other instantly changed state. It seems to me that this change is instantaneous therefore faster than the speed of light.

1st experiment towards the science of teleportation? May be...

Here is the CNRS press release about the Neutrino experience: https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 4QsNbi.pdf

They speak conditional.
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by dedeleco » 27/09/11, 13:33

It seems to me that this change is instantaneous therefore faster than the speed of light.

This is the collapse of the infinite speed wave function !!!
More no information or energy is thus transmitted !!!

Nothing to do with the neutron neutrality, which practically does not affect relativity !!!

A quasar photon emitted 10 billion years ago has a photon wave function on a circle of radius of these 10 billion light years throughout the universe !!
When it is absorbed in a telescope on earth, it cannot be absorbed anywhere else in the universe and therefore its wave function disappears instantly throughout the universe on this sphere with a radius of 10 billion light years! !
This collapse or instantaneous disappearance (nanosecond) occurs throughout the universe !!

The other effects on more complex situations, such as two particles (photon or other) emitted in opposite directions, identical in orientation (spin) of kinetic or magnetic moment, at the same instant, with the measurement of the orientation on one, (unknown before) resulting in the same identical measurement on the other at 2x10 billion years away, this instantly, with the impression of infinite speed !!!!

This has been verified over distances of around 100Km !!!!

It is a simple form of teleportation !!
But there is no information or energy transport !!

Exact quantum mechanics for our world, is totally incompatible with classical mechanics, it totally distorts, as Plank solved it, coming out of the mystery, why the sun does not radiate an infinite energy, as expected in classical statistical mechanics (our world cannot exist in classical mechanics) !!
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by dedeleco » 27/09/11, 13:46

They do not talk about the relativistic corrections of the fact that the starting frame of reference is not at the same speed as that of arrival (the earth rotates at around 40000Km / 24h on its surface, with therefore different speed orientations).
This value deserves to be indicated ?????
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by clasou » 28/09/11, 09:37

Hello,
For those who did not hear it, broadcast with three physicists, with between
others who directed the research.

http://www.franceinter.fr/emission-la-t ... t-depassee

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by vinzman » 28/09/11, 15:27

dedeleco wrote:It's a penny: 20m by 750m !!
it is a speed distribution around the speed of slightly eccentric light.
The transmitter and the detector are rather slow (microseconds !!) so
A huge job to measure neutrinos and these 750Km to within 20cm !!!!!!

So possible errors and independent verifications by other laboratories necessary !!!

the article:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/ ... 9.4897.pdf
http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pd ... 0437v3.pdf

Relativity does not remain false, the maximum authorized speed increases by this inch!
May be the effect of the passage through the land of neutrinos which slightly changes this maximum speed ????????????????????????
Effect of Earth's gravitation ??? or terrestrial rotation ??
which shows that the departure and reception standards do not have the same speed orientation (surface speed of the order of 40000Km / 24xcos (latitude) and which therefore introduces a correction ????

We can trust physicists to find all kinds of possible explanations.
Some even planned it before the measurement !!!!!!
Quantum effect !!
possible, given that the collapse of the wave function has an infinite speed, like a lot of what is not measurable in quantum mechanics (without information or energy)
An example :
http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pd ... 4980v1.pdf

If true, it is necessary to complicate a little the physics of particles and neutrinos, already very complex, and to measure with this precision the speed of all particles without mass or has very low mass, in particular those of the various neutrinos !!!!


in other words, it could be that CERN makes noise only to be talked about while knowing full well that their results may be wrong, and that, only in order to boost the popularity of their titanic toy? Am i good?
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by clasou » 28/09/11, 15:48

Hello,
And if you listen to the report (link above) it may bring you the questions to your answers.
Rather than making a buzz about other "claims or assumptions".
Now you may have more skills than his three physicists.

In this case the pleasure of reading you, even if I am dumped.
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by dedeleco » 28/09/11, 19:15

Hello,
France inter confirms my impression by reading the articles quickly:
experiments with a huge work to draw a max with neutrino pulses which last 10 microseconds is 1000 times the observed effect of slight overspeed and therefore it is to measure the speed of a TGV with a precision in length of the thousandth of the TGV, on the departure and arrival times of the TGV !!
It is the same as measuring with a stopwatch that reacts 1000 times the time to be measured, you have to be sure that the time delay is always constant and the same every time !!

Much more the neutrino TGV is much less clearly defined than a TGV !!!

The scientists on France Inter are very careful, under the condition of an error which we do not think of !!
Since the length of the neutrino pulses is 1000 times that of the effect, the first reaction is to doubt !!
The skeptical astrophysicist gives the example of measurements on binary stoles which were only in agreement with relativity after having thought of a very subtle forgotten effect to be thought of, and there, otherwise, the error was much worse !!

He also points out that given the duration of 10 microseconds of neutrino pulses, no real information and energy is transmitted faster than light !!

Without saying it, he thinks of the quantum tunnel effect, where we can also observe an apparent speed much higher than that of light over short distances, for some of the particles which seem to go much faster than light !!
But that requires a very precise analysis on what is called real speed of passage, which is that of information and energy.
The quantum tunnel effect makes it very difficult to define the passage time, because in classical mechanics which is used to define this passage time, no particle would pass through a mountain, and therefore that complicates !!

A particle is described by a quantum wave function which has a certain dimension (like neutrinos), and therefore the end of the wave function which arrives first gives the impression of having passed faster than light !!
Especially since in the passage through a barrier, the wave function changes shape (like a pulse of non-monochromatic light through an optical filter, a bit like if the TGV lost cars) and we do not know at all if we measure the speed of passage of the start of the wave function, (it much faster than light) or the tail (slower). the choice of the center of the wave packet (or TGV specifically), determines the speed !!
So subject full of endless discussions (armada of article on the tunnel effect as well).
I think that neutrinos are a bit of this subtle problem, especially that they partially transform from one type to another, a bit like in the tunnel effect !! (across space and the interior of the earth with the Alps).


So I am skeptical and even if exact (function of definition of the speed to be specified), it is very little 20/750000 and therefore E = Mc2 will always be true, because observed repeatedly at CERN, with GPS (which is used to measure 750Km !!), with nuclear power plants that give us electricity thanks to this E = Mc2.

So the title "E = Mc2 .... completely outdated" is arch false, and makes jump !!!
There are too many checks.
At best there will be micro corrections, a bit like for the quantum tunnel effect !!
To my impression, there will be to clarify the definition of a large bundle of neutrinos which may distort !!
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by clasou » 29/09/11, 10:59

Hello, glad you’re listening to the show.
I will not give my opinion on the merits, because more than incompetent, but as said by the one who directed the research, for him there is certainly an error, but they may well have all taken over they do not see, d others watched and neither did.
Now they give everyone the opportunity to search, maybe someone will find a reason, now what consequence no idea.

Now this is not how evolution takes place, by handing over the certainties that cause it.
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