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ADEME global EcoBilan of the electric VS thermal car

published: 20/06/14, 11:27
by Christophe
The ADEME published in November 2013 a comparative global comparison of the electric car vs engines gasoline and diesel ... which joins the long discussions we had on this forum there are already some time.

See pages: Transportation-electric / environmental balance-electric-car-t4471.html

https://www.econologie.com/voiture-elec ... omparatif/

Transportation-electric / electric-car-limits-physical-and-balance-global-t6294.html

Transportation-electric / electric-car-and-heat-balance-well-a-la-wheel-t10080.html

Summary in .pdf: https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/par ... Y3eUpj.pdf

Full report in .pdf: https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/par ... OeCshO.pdf



Electric vehicle comparative life cycle analysis - thermal vehicle

Development according to LCA principles of energy balances, greenhouse gas emissions and other environmental impacts induced by all sectors of electric vehicles and thermal vehicles, segment B VP (multi-purpose city car) and LCV Horizon 2012 and 2020


Summary :

In the face of global challenges such as climate change or energy dependency, but also to local challenges such as improving the quality of city air, the vehicle
electric can be of real interest. Global car manufacturers are starting to implement this new mobility solution and governments are offering incentive schemes for the development of the industry.

In this context, the ADEME commissioned a study to establish a comparison of the environmental assessments of electric vehicles and gasoline and diesel fuel vehicles.

The study carried out is a classic life cycle analysis, supplemented by a perspective of the results on two key topics: local nuisances and critical materials.
The primary data were collected from a Technical Committee bringing together the different stakeholders of electric mobility. This committee is composed
Thirty or so members bring their expertise, provide the data necessary for modeling and validate the hypotheses proposed. The obtained results
are analyzed according to different scenarios in order to qualify their ranges of variability. Finally, to account for the perspectives of technological evolution, two time horizons
are considered: 2012 and 2020.


And the analysis of the friends of the earth: http://www.amisdelaterre.org/L-ADEME-di ... e-sur.html

(...)

An electric vehicle and a diesel consume a total of as much primary energy as each other (a little more for a gasoline car): thus, no energy saving to expect from the electric car. The manufacture of the vehicle represents 20% of the total in the case of diesel, and 37% for the electric one.

And the impact on the climate? Everything depends on the source of electricity

With the German electricity, resulting from more than 40% of the coal, an electric vehicle emits about as much CO2 as a diesel vehicle on 100 000 km, or 10% less if it rolls 150 000km, admitting that There is no need to change the battery in the meantime (which remains doubtful).

The balance sheet is a little better for the electric vehicle in other European countries, given the nature of their electricity. But to find a real difference, you have to come to France. With 76,5% of nuclear power in 2012 (74% in 2020, according to the ADEME scenario), the electric vehicle will emit 55% of CO2 less on 150 000 km. The electric vehicle is therefore only nuclear. But why not renewable energies? Because it is already very difficult to replace existing electricity with renewables, as shown by the German example, without having new uses to cover.

For Friends of the Earth, the nuclear-powered electric car is not an acceptable solution. The risks of nuclear power, the problem of its waste, the impact on uranium-producing countries are absent from the ADEME study.

In addition, the "mobility solution" offered by the electric vehicle does not hold water. According to the basic scenario of ADEME, an electric car is an urban vehicle (given the limited autonomy of the batteries), which travels 150 km in 000 years of life, or 10 km per day traveled by car in town . This is not efficient use and in itself is wasteful. The real solution exists: public transport and active circulation.

On the one hand, there must be shared vehicles, which everyone can use occasionally when a car is really useful: taxis, carsharing. For everyday urban use, public transport and cycling are the only sustainable solution. They allow, without major technological innovation, without risk taking on the environment and health, to reduce the impact of our displacements by an 4 factor in the fast delays required by the ecological transition.

> JEAN-FRANÇOIS PATINGRE

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 14/10/16, 08:26
by Janic
this craze for the electric vehicle to, supposedly, avoid global warming is only an illusion


An electric vehicle and a diesel consume a total of as much primary energy as each other (a little more for a gasoline car): thus, no energy saving to expect from the electric car. The manufacture of the vehicle represents 20% of the total in the case of diesel, and 37% for the electric one.

And the impact on the climate? Everything depends on the source of electricity

With the German electricity, resulting from more than 40% of the coal, an electric vehicle emits about as much CO2 as a diesel vehicle on 100 000 km, or 10% less if it rolls 150 000km, admitting that There is no need to change the battery in the meantime (which remains doubtful).

The balance sheet is a little better for the electric vehicle in other European countries, given the nature of their electricity. But to find a real difference, you have to come to France. With 76,5% of nuclear power in 2012 (74% in 2020, according to the ADEME scenario), the electric vehicle will emit 55% of CO2 less on 150 000 km. The electric vehicle is therefore only nuclear. But why not renewable energies? Because it is already very difficult to replace existing electricity with renewables, as shown by the German example, without having new uses to cover.

For Friends of the Earth, the nuclear-powered electric car is not an acceptable solution. The risks of nuclear power, the problem of its waste, the impact on uranium-producing countries are absent from the ADEME study.

In addition, the "mobility solution" offered by the electric vehicle does not hold water. According to the basic scenario of ADEME, an electric car is an urban vehicle (given the limited autonomy of the batteries), which travels 150 km in 000 years of life, or 10 km per day traveled by car in town . This is not efficient use and in itself is wasteful. The real solution exists: public transport and active circulation.

On the one hand, there must be shared vehicles, which everyone can use occasionally when a car is really useful: taxis, carsharing. For everyday urban use, public transport and cycling are the only sustainable solution. They allow, without major technological innovation, without risk taking on the environment and health, to reduce the impact of our displacements by an 4 factor in the fast delays required by the ecological transition.

> JEAN-FRANÇOIS PATINGRE


On the one hand we drink with the energy savings with lamps, for example, and on the other is the mismanagement with this future all-electric car. There are all those crazy romans ... sorry, these builders!

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 14/10/16, 09:34
by izentrop
Janic wrote:There are all those crazy romans ... sorry, these builders!
realistic!
To restore the climatic balance, all electricity is the solution of the future, provided that the needs are met with "clean" renewable energies, excluding thermal sources: fossils, biomass and nuclear.

There is still a lot of work to be done, but for the moment, the decision-makers seem to be taking the wrong path.

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 14/10/16, 11:20
by Janic
realistic!
utopians rather, like the utopia of all fossil energies
To restore the climate balance, the all electric is the solution of the future, provided that the needs are met with “clean” renewable energies, excluding thermal sources: fossils, biomass and nuclear.

Obviously no, because, in terms of energy, electricity production is extremely polluting too. However, for our country, the electric vehicle could be conceived as a solution, not to global pollution, but to that of large urban centers, because this thermal pollution generates many pathologies that must be treated and therefore add to the cost of energy production.
But outside major urban centers, where this excess of CO2 is no longer absorbed by vegetation, electricity (which for the moment is essentially nuclear and it is not about to stop at cost underestimated in terms of depollution and dismemberment, with in addition to the sword of Damocles that a central leaking or pest and there it costs the skin of the buttocks) it is not the cessation of fossil energy that matters but the excess of use and speed.
There is still a lot of work to be done, but for the moment, the decision-makers seem to be taking the wrong path.
Decision makers, as for any other industrial field, let come to follow (and not precede) the builders.

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 30/05/24, 09:29
by Remundo
I came across a video of a funny and friendly Ti Gars



it makes the thermal VS electrical balance without bias with honest data.

I recommend watching (long video, but you can choose by section).

His Youtuve Channel: The Awakener

The only downside is that he hardly sees a problem with nuclear electricity (in any case he doesn't say a word) which he considers to be very carbon-free without further qualification...

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 30/05/24, 14:01
by sicetaitsimple
Remundo wrote:I came across a video of a funny and friendly Ti Gars



it makes the thermal VS electrical balance without bias with honest data.





The only downside is that he hardly sees a problem with nuclear electricity (in any case he doesn't say a word) which he considers to be very carbon-free without further qualification...


Indeed, this video is rather well done and interesting.
Especially since its conclusions will only become more pronounced as the decarbonization of electricity production continues almost everywhere, particularly in Europe.
PS: I am not answering on nuclear power and its CO2 emissions, the subject having already been discussed many times.

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 30/05/24, 15:56
by Remundo
that nuclear electricity is largely decarbonized, I agree. He takes it into account.

What the Young Man does not say is that decarbonizing the EV in France is done to the benefit of radioactive waste and the risks of operating power plants.

Okay but it's a very small criticism, overall his video is very, very detailed.

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 30/05/24, 16:51
by sicetaitsimple
Remundo wrote:
What the Young Man does not say is that decarbonizing the EV in France is done to the benefit of radioactive waste and the risks of operating power plants.

I do not think that there is a desire in France to increase nuclear production. "The EPR2s" that we are talking about are intended to replace, around 2035 or later, power plants which will reach the end of their life. Not necessarily more or less production, and therefore waste and risks.
In my opinion, the difference will be made in renewables, particularly solar.

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 30/05/24, 17:25
by Remundo
small cars if they were all electrified would need 100 TWh more on the network, which roughly represents the production of 10 EPR each year.

I hope that as much renewable energy as possible electrifies the network, but I am not naive either, it will be complicated unless we build large-scale underwater STEPs and massive solar and wind infrastructures.

Our nuclear country will of course choose to maintain part of the mix on fissile power, but it will still have to become "damned" again to build a few radiant kettles, because if we count the renewal of the nuclear power plant + the strengthening for electric mobility, we are easily at 20 1GW power plants to build... maybe even more...

Re: EcoBilan global ADEME electric car VS thermal

published: 30/05/24, 17:35
by sicetaitsimple
Underwater WWTPs?