Thermal wells with ceiling heating

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PROPAC
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Thermal wells with ceiling heating




by PROPAC » 02/07/09, 15:20

Hi the Econologues.

I submit to you a little innovation in terms of refresh

here I finished my internship in a small SME in Angoulême (INNOVERT) I took a tour in their "R&D" part and I saw that they were doing final tests for a well solution thermal in the foundations of the house. It is similar to the famous Canadian well which with a double flow CMV, circulates the air in your home in the foundations to cool the summer.

Except that they circulate air, not in the foundations but the water system for ceilings and wall heating (Plafino) .It an alternative to refresh system PAC reversible. Instead of using your PAC to refresh your water system on the ceiling / walls, using only the water pump and you enter the water in the foundations for the refresh. (We had to refresh almost gratis : Mrgreen: )

series of measures was carried out to see the consumption of the system and you get super low power consumption.

this is a test day for example in a house 110 m² (1200m of PE pipes buried in the foundations)

Image

for that day were consumed 140Wh (either 1,50centimes EDF) in 24h with peaks at 33 ° C outside (that is Angoulême is not the great heat wave : Cheesy:)

The pump works only when needed to regulate the indoor temperature.

Now to see if it works well with larger heat ...:?: (They will send me the results when y 'will have the heat wave in the area)

the system looks promising, all is whether the reserves of the wells are depleting fast during the refresh period (summer).
Anyway at least it could avoid consuming the CAP through the summer. By cons as the Canadian well, as the installation is in the foundations it is a difficult system to be installed on houses already built.
EDIT: I got the results for cooling 3semaines with this system and soil temperature rose less than 1 ° C. With a ground-12 13 ° C behind it is clear that this system can easily hold all summer and therefore save any energy!

I wanted to know if some of you had heard of similar systems to know roughly the life of these wells was (is it a little exhaustible reserves?).

Do you also an idea of ​​the impact that this type of system can have on the environment?
Personally I think as the installation is in the foundations it is not likely to threaten the ecosystem.
Last edited by PROPAC the 06 / 07 / 09, 08: 50, 3 edited once.
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fthanron
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by fthanron » 02/07/09, 17:12

Hi PROPAC

What you are describing furiously resembles the Canadian glycol well system widely used in Germany> inquire about the .de sites or from passive house addicts

Note in passing heated ceiling = completely ineffective, unless you want to have the cooked brain ...

On the ecological side, the brine is not the best and far from it.

Finally, what types of buildings are this solution for?

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PROPAC
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by PROPAC » 03/07/09, 09:04

It is a solution for THPE housing (apartment house), but it can be used in any type of home, the only condition being that your roof is well insulated and call the heated ceiling (that very well also works with Heated walls)

1) they do not cool with glycol water but the water coming out of the tap. What interest to use the brine when you want to refresh in the summer (it your water will not freeze in summer :D).

2)
Note in passing heated ceiling = completely ineffective, unless you want to have the cooked brain ...


so it depends what you're talking about

I'm talking about ceiling heating TBT (low temperature)
heaters you / your house cooled with water that has a temperature differential with the atmosphere that does not exceed 4-5 ° C
Heating is only by radiation. (With a water-4 5 ° C above ambient temperature'll hurt you to cook your brain : Lol: )


then you tell me the ceiling heating is completely innefficace. Theoretically this is exactly the same as the floor heating because you do the exchange by radiation so mainly by the top or bottom it is the same (is a bit of convection with the floor though)

But the ceiling heating is more éfficace:

-tu do not have a concrete screed or another makes thermal resistance effect as for the floor heating and this is the main argument.

-on the floor heating radiation is absorbed by most furniture that is ground so this radiation is lost to heat the air in your home

-If your roof is well insulated you have no reason to have losses on your ceiling heating

Here I hope to have been as clear as possible, not hesitate to take on some stuff I explained wrong : Mrgreen:
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by elephant » 03/07/09, 11:36

Here is a fascinating subject: I always dreamed of going to sleep in the basement during the heat wave :D

the heating ceiling supporters, I have a client who has it in him, a Swiss system overpriced, but ended up putting some heaters. Anyway, this gra ^ to ca convection must walk at least a little.

And in winter, what do we do with this system: you use it on a boiler, or using other means?

What section polyethylene tubing?

In Belgium, the Econo SA, markets systems or they do the opposite: they store solar energy in the yoke, to restore it with a cap, which thus obtains an excellent performance.
Apparently, their site is inactive, I inquire. I hope he did not put the key under the doormat, I still met their boss on their fair booth in November.
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by PROPAC » 03/07/09, 11:46

Ben on the ceiling heating company where I did my internship (Innovert) has fairly low consumption in heating as in cooling so it works very well.
They maximize the exchange surface to reduce the consumption (it's stupid but y 'has not alot that are shit to do)

I give you their website if you're interested http://www.innovert.eu

in the winter the water circuit that passes through the ceiling is powered by a heat pump air / water integrated in the frame.

PE tubes I really remember how much do .. I've seen so I would say memory something which radius 5mm to break everything

for your company in Switzerland how they store solar energy in the ground? and they recycle it with a geothermal heat pump is ca ??
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by fthanron » 03/07/09, 12:05

Hi PROPAC

This system seems very funny since it implies that the design of the building of tomorrow and / or the way of life of the "inhabitants" is not likely to be suitable for an acceptable thermal comfort of summer ... the approach does not me not suitable.

On the other hand, if the heating ceiling that exists for ages (funny that!) Has not established itself (TBT or not) this is definitely that there are reasons that go beyond simply marketing. Examples of failures abound, simply check with architects and clients.

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by PROPAC » 03/07/09, 13:40

This system seems very funny since it implies that the design of the building of tomorrow and / or the way of life of the "inhabitants" is not likely to be suitable for an acceptable thermal comfort of summer ... the approach does not me not suitable.


I need you details as there because I not see what you mean ....
In any case if the well is not enough I get recalled you that it can be relayed at any time by a CAP (reversible) in cooling mode ..

For ceiling heating ... Ben the box in which I did my internship which has one of the best energy balance of France (for installations with CAP) with heated floors (See comparative study that you find on their website
here . )
She even better results on the ceiling and wall heating (they call it the plafino).
That's why they are just working to gradually move from floor to ceiling.

(TBT or not)
I understand that it is for now the only ones doing the very low temperature heating ceiling so you have trouble finding me an example of where other box ca no market.

And in general I think it is fairly simplistic to say that technology will not work because she has never worked in the past.

and then behind a technological ceiling heating appellation as you have a whole series of products as everywhere quality products and bad products
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by fthanron » 03/07/09, 14:29

I detailed what?

That before thinking about a system of heating / cooling one must study the very design of the building? This refreshment story is born from the idea that a building is not comfortable in summer or winter is not it? Or so, and it is rather the impression that I have, it is to give a complementary selling point to the heating system history to sell a little more.

Maybe he should visit some homes designed correctly for you to understand that this cooling system is totally unnecessary. There are plenty of books and concrete examples that demonstrate to you. Despite what the website Inov ...

To the side wall heating / refreshing, I think it's great ideas, earthen flood yada yada yada ... which leaves a free wall furniture / home decoration during 20 years?

For the heating ceiling, excluding TBT there are plenty of examples, I leave you care to inform you.

Second, install the system in all heated rooms in a house tandisque passive type, a single stove 6 KW enough (psychological care).

On the website you give, is not treated the aspect renewal of air, waterproofing, what about?

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by elephant » 03/07/09, 14:48

propac said:

for your company in Switzerland how they store solar energy in the ground? and they recycle it with a geothermal heat pump is ca ??


Nay, it's boiler heating, it's an old trick from the 50s. The "radiators" are in a false ceiling.
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by PROPAC » 03/07/09, 16:06

Second, install the system in all heated rooms in a house tandisque passive type, a single stove 6 KW enough (psychological care).


I think I have even talked about passive house is the best of the best in terms of energy consomation there's no doubt but I could not tell if this system is reliable for this type of home because no ca yet been tested. (I am using the experience and not on theory)

But hey it's not the problem.
you compare the ecological stove with the PAC + plafino system

The ecological stove 6KW is a tendering system nonuniform heating you do not have a constant temperature throughout your room and then the propagation of heat is rather slow, again it is a variable consomation system (your fuel n is not consumed uniformly).

With floor systems / walls / ceiling heating you of issuers located throughout the house allow for a constant temperature in the house so a more comfortable home.

this system (plafino) is already used in houses THPE and BBC so it's not Innovert theory and the company installs energy counters to verify the performance of its systems. They are not content to have contributed to a BBC THPE house that are just labels obtained by simulation / modeling and are therefore big bullshit.

For the history of wall heating without furniture you could say the same for heated floors whose radiation is absorbed by all objects on the ground + screed of concrete or other.
At present there is much less loss on the walls than on the floors. and then the heated walls in general replace the ceiling only when it presents a real interest (walls of bathrooms without furniture etc ...)

for the renewal of the air on the houses I visited there had to be the single or double flow VMC.

I know for sealing the pipes coming out of the heated area or exchange zones are prompted systematically isolated
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