Need advice on insulation strategy

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
manuel05
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Need advice on insulation strategy




by manuel05 » 08/02/15, 17:03

Hello everybody

I ask you to have your opinion on the isolation and inertia strategy of the farm that I am starting to retype.
The context: This is an old farmhouse built to the south of a residential area, to the north of a barn (only one building). It is located in the Hautes Alpes, at 1m above sea level. The Hautes Alpes are already the southern Alps, so lots of sun, but great thermal amplitudes, and temperatures which can drop to -1200 in winter. Bad weather and wind tend to come from the west side.
For now inside I have emptied everything, there are only the walls, the frame and the roofing. The living floor is high, the entire basement consisting of vaulted cellars.
I'm going to change all the joinery.
We are in a very dry country, there is no humidity problem (I found dry mice under the floors!). The walls are made of stone (shale macerated in the earth: lime) and are 60 thick. They are very irregular.

I wanted to present to you what I thought about insulation, in order to have opinions.

- To insulate the floor (on vaulted cellars), pour hemp lime tiles 15 cm thick.
- For the roof, I'm going to redo the cover. Insulation between rafters (materials? Wood wool or cellulose wadding), + sarking in wood wool plates, rigid wood wool panel in rain shield.

- The walls, and there it becomes complicated:

- In the north, wall between the barn (not insulated, a bit open to the winds ...) and the house: cellular concrete wall of 20 cm + straw bales on the barn side).

- To the west: exterior insulation in straw bales, covered with a lime coating (inertia inside). Inside exposed stone wall on one place, lime plastered wall on the rest. Do the bales of coated straw withstand the prevailing winds and precipitation?

- In the south: the wall takes the sun well. I thought I would only make a hemp lime coating of 6 cm outside, and straw earth 6 cm inside.

- To the west, very difficult external insulation (access to the top of the cellars by a large staircase which acts as a buttress of the wall). So was thinking of making a hemp lime coating on the outside, 6 cm, and an insulation of 10/12 cm on the inside, like cellulose wadding, or coated reeds, or wood wool?

- For the connections, you can look at the plan which I join.

Thank you for your expert advice!

Manuel
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 09/02/15, 01:23

Hello,

To insulate the floor (on vaulted cellars), pour hemp lime tiles 15 cm thick.


hemp lime is an insulation corrector especially in plaster and from a certain level of binder (lime) it is nothing more than a breathable sticky material .... The secret of a good hemp lime is a minimum of binder and a maximum of hemp wool (not chenevotte), in order to capture a maximum of air ....

We chose the lime batarde option (lime nhl-z, lime plus cement roughly :) , the quantity is marked on the bags), it dries faster than lime alone, is harder but remains breathable ...
with volcanic stone instead of gravel ... you put your hand on it, the hand heats with its own heat not like with concrete or you're cold ... a little expensive but effective and it does like a classic concrete concrete mixer .... or router according to suppliers ...



For the roof, I'm going to redo the cover. Insulation between rafters (materials? Wood wool or cellulose wadding), + sarking in wood wool plates, rigid wood wool panel in rain shield.


So Sharking in HDP panel (high density wood fiber panels) hydro ... I did the same thing;) .... sticks well between PU panels (polyurethane cole) .... and minimum holes inside, there are strips of foam that you stick under the counter batten which covers the panels. This foam is double-sided, it is used to hold the counter batten but above all you pre drill the counter battens, and you put soft tiles below ... so it sticks to hold in place, and when you live through the foam surrounds around the step and finished leaking with the screws;) ....

Materials, undoubtedly wadding injected between 55 and 60kg / m3 ...

So rain shield wind ok with sharking, but you're not talking about indoor air control? without air control you do not get insulation ... anyway to inject you need a vapor barrier or brake ....

Personally, the membrane option suits me very well, the rosé point is therefore not a problem, in general ... but to check anyway research here or on Futura Science there are spreadsheets for that .. . but with a membrane type "intellectual" it is lucky that your dew point is in the insulation or in the wall ...
look at the Siga primur site manufacturing high-performance special scotch-type materials and certify by accelerated aging tests for a 20 th year ... it sticks and it is practical well done and thought out ... Intello also look, there you go vera a lot of break technique ... a good break lasting and effective ... the savings of candle ends in a house can be expensive after 10 years, when the scotch comes off and lets the air pass ... .


The walls, and there it gets complicated:


:D you believe me if i tell you that the most complicated thing is to choose between interior and exterior insulation :)...

In principle an insulation is a layer of insulation without thermal bridge ... basically you go around point .... a blow in a blow out, and at the end you have the angles that become big bridge thermal .... Whether at the bottom or at the top the problem of air control is the same ...

Assessment, I would submit the following idea to you:

Unpretentious coating of interior insulation, but which will act as a vapor barrier .. hemp lime type coating or better, elephant grass and lime;) cheaper same application but rot-proof .... or flax, or sand or earth lime :) .....

And outside you go up in straw (next house I try the thing also the concept trots in my head for quite some time) ... in the idea to avoid problems due to the fleet I would tend to put the boots offset from the walls by 3 to 4 cm making an air space (not stagnant;) ...) .... but that will avoid transmission by condensation and capillarity ...

Above a good rain shield and a good cladding or plate more lattice and coated .... as desired ...
For the difficult corner, make hemp lime in this case puts him 10 cm, with very little binder (almost twice less than the prescribed dose hold well and you can pack more because there will always be more air in it, and formwork break it's simple ...) this also depends on the height, you can inlay pieces of wood that will be used to fix the cladding for example or just to fix the formwork boards and you remove the pieces of wood by filling in the coating after ... which would have the advantage of sheltering for a long time your coating of putting a cladding (which does not require being in a special blade of course;)) ....

So in summary this is how I see and did things when it was my job renovating ...

at the top have made a cocoon, well insulated (like 30 cm of cotton wool injected at 55 to 60 kg / m3, 35 cm is very good;), whatever you put in insulation you will recover it in heating in less ...)
sharking is nickel to remove thermal bridges ...

the brakes steam membrane intello go with the hdp panels at the level of the "perspirence" coefficient, it is bigger and bigger from the inside to the outside ... check this when you choose your complex each material a transmission coefficient of water vapor (variable in the case of a membrane (perspirence barbaric word but close to reality the house perspires and must not block this perspiration;) and say that we do it for the houses :D ) ...

treats junctions ..

example on the proclimat site (inetllo):

https://fr.proclima.com/media/downloads ... ntello.pdf

http://www.siga.ch/fr/telechargements/classic.html

same for the rain shield if there is one ... and for the HDP panels of course .... the angles are technical points not to be overlooked ...


And at the bottom, either an interior insulating coating or an insulation corrector, and above all a steam brake. You will however be able to iron after two years on all the junctions that have dried and therefore will no doubt have left small cracks and therefore leaks air ... but then you will be slow;) ....

do not hesitate for any other question I would do my best ...

otherwise your plan is too small we see nothing ... dsl

see you
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manuel05
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insulation board




by manuel05 » 09/02/15, 11:34

Thank you for the quick reply,

I send you an MP, to try to join the plan in bigger, it is a PDF and I can't get a good quality image,

Manuel
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 15/02/15, 21:22

Hi ;

Manuel where are you? :) .... what are your choices, and (I have received nothing as a plan from you to help you more precisely ??) ..



see you
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manuel05
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by manuel05 » 20/02/15, 21:16

Hello and thank you.

sorry for the delays, i'm in full season and it's a bit sporty!

I especially wonder about the relevance of the interior insulation on the east side.

I try to send the plan again,

Manuel

Image

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... bUkaAy.pdf
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 21/02/15, 01:39

Hi Manuel,


Do not be sorry ;) ...

Personally it is not especially the relevance of the insulation on the west side that pauses me problem :D ... it's rather the whole ...

everyone is free to do as they wish, but on your map, which we can see very well in pdf, I see two superb thermal bridges in the front walls ...

to play a shot inside a shot outside there are always angles that will not be covered with insulation ... this is exactly the case at the level of the house / barn partition on the right and on the left (at least it's balanced;)).

Treated in this way, you have no control over the air, so you have no insulation (insulation = insulation + air control).

Amha in your case if you don't want (and I understand it from a financial point of view), make a layer of hemp and lime or bales of straw all over the house, your insulation strategy is lost in advance, and the investment that you will have made will be almost in pure loss (certainly you will have gains in temperature compared to nothing ...), and suddenly instead of saving you will add expenses (heating, humidity likely in some walls, in the end certainly you will call on a company, because blazed by your mishap, and I'm not talking about the couple if the hard work and the fair result see worse, even if apparently good as long as it is new ... )

in your case therefore I would opt for an interior insulation strategy which breathes, either coated with hemp and shoveled lime but not packed, under dosed in lime (2/3 see 1/2 of the quantity generally prescribed on sacks of nhl2 for example ..) ep 10 cm ... it thermally corrects much more than a conventional coating by hand for example ... the feeling is touched, but by dint of touching we have a certain notion of what quickly and very much returns the heat or not ...
Certain machine its also great but rare and made individually ...
you have to see what it gives before calling it ...

there is also the sand and the compressor ... it's physical ...

In short with this coating you control the air, and you correct the insulation (and much more with lime;)) ...

at the same top, in addition to your roofing, vapor retarder membrane (membrane not just vapor retarder) checks the Mu, but normally the permeability variability of the membrane corresponds to that of dense wood panels. you must have a progression in the diffusion, more and more open to the outside .... so as not to end up with your point of rosé in the insulation.

Any holes not chosen and placed in a thoughtful way are your enemies ...;) ...

Otherwise you choose to continue in your approach, which I respect, because it is in error that we progress, to know if you have the shoulders to assume such errors ...

sorry if I speak a little harshly, but what I see scares me a little. And at the present time using efficient materials, so that it does not fulfill their role is in my opinion that one more pollution ... and a waste of life, do not take so badly what I say ...

The best is the enemy of good in some cases ...
I invite you to review your copy, on simpler bases, or less simple by taking external insulation, but more advantageous and relevant ... any problem to a solution .. if you have time and motivation, everything is possible ...

I almost forgot, important, your walls are well adobe or stone and coated with lime or earth? no cement which would block the humidity inside (or a lime bastards it is good too) to leave on a breathable insulating complex it is necessary of course that the wall can do it ... the cement does not do it if it is the main binder (well not to my knowledge) ...

That's good thinking.


see you
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manuel05
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by manuel05 » 22/02/15, 13:02

Hello,

I fully understand your explanations, and I'm not stuck on my strategy, that's why I ask for competent opinions on the forum.

I assumed that an ITE was more interesting, especially in terms of keeping the inertia of stone walls. Unfortunately I can't go around the whole house, because the barn part has no walls on its upper part, just a few boards:
Image
In addition, the roof of the barn is not insulated and I do not intend to do it again for the moment (the two roofs are independent and not at the same height.
And on the west side, I would have liked to keep part of the exposed stone wall (so pb with interior insulation). But it is only aesthetic, comfort takes precedence especially that we are in the mountains at 1200m altitude, it can be very cold.

In your experience, is it possible to go from interior to exterior insulation on certain walls, by making a fairly significant insulation covering? For example continue the insulation on 1 meter outside and inside (double insulation on these parts if you know what I mean). Or do I embark on something complicated and ineffective? (I am attaching my modified plan on the barn partition side).

Otherwise it is also possible to dismantle part of the side walls of the barn to make a connection with the outside (extend the partition wall), it could be a job ...

The insulation that you offer me from the inside in shoveled hemp lime, what does it give inertia level?

And for concrete, the west wall (where the bad weather comes from here) was actually covered with shotcrete in the 70s ... It's going to be a lot of work but I have to remove this coating ... Still we are lucky, here it is a very dry country!

Thank you and good day,

Manu
https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... UVzbJH.pdf
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 22/02/15, 15:41

Hello ,

I take the time to answer more precisely later, but quickly ...

the principle is that your wall is conductive although semi insulating :) ... it leaves a certain amount of energy past ... so where it cools, the cold is transmitted by conduction in the wall, and vice versa ...

so for me to isolate a blow in a blow out is to arrive at something awful ....

ITE without blinking for all the benefits you mentioned, plus :) increase in the longevity of the walls, because more subject to the change in temperature like sun gel;) .... in the mountains it must be nice the contrasts at certain times.

Inertia, in the mountains in winter mmmm thank you ...

in short in your case a lot of advantage ....

so question would it not be possible to dissociate the two parts in order to pass with a layer of insulation on the periphery of the house .... the staircase is not a problem ...

It's a simple question do not panic you must estimate the possible solutions before launching ...

can be insulate the stone wall sills and pass through the wooden part above? coat elephant grass with lime (cheaper and rot-proof) at the top of the walls to prevent the spread of cold as much as possible;) ... do you know what I mean?

I can make a sketch and you tell me if it is possible ...

see you
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manuel05
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by manuel05 » 23/02/15, 18:20

Hi Bidouille, I'm going to have to go into details!
first of all I want your diagram to better understand.


I am attaching 3 photos to this email. The red lines correspond to the limits of the part that I want to make habitable (and it will be the level of the balconies, which will go around the house. Below, vaulted cellars. Next to it, the barn. My cut out bites a little on the barn because this is where the pillars of the vaults are, and therefore where I want to make my load-bearing wall of barn / house separation. The lower roof corresponds to the living part, I will extend it to the partition interior house / barn in ciporex.

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... wZ7jz3.jpg

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... I0nMD9.jpg

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 6VRAhT.jpg
So, for insulation, basically I have two choices:

- Or complete interior insulation. There is nothing for now, I have a large cube. So quite easy to make an insulating "box" where walls, roof and insulated slab are continuous. All this complemented by a small insulating coating on the outside. It remains to define which insulation.

- Either external insulation, but it is much more complex, and certainly more expensive. Several questions:
-With regard to dissociating the two parts, it is possible, I had thought about it. It is necessary to dismantle a part of the walls of the barn (red lines on the photo. On the other hand there will remain a thermal bridge at ground level, not being able to descend under the concrete foundation of my wall in ciporex house / barn.
- For the ITE, you have to go down to the bottom of the house, knowing that my living area is on the first floor. I suppose so. However the walls will always get cold (limited) by the interior walls of the cellars (no windows, wrong doors). It would therefore be essential to isolate these, as well as the underside of the vaults ... Or change the doors and put windows in the cellars ...

So I think the question to ask is this:
The ITE is more effective, but in my case considering the means to be implemented, is it justified? Or is good interior insulation, with a stone partition wall to manage a little inertia, more interesting? I admit that I do not have the skills and experience to decide before this dilemma!
And knowing that here: very large daily thermal amplitudes, easily 30 degrees between day and night.
Large annual amplitudes summer winter.
Very good sunshine, very dry, regular strong winds.

see you later and thank you,

Manu
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 23/02/15, 19:15

Hello ,

before continuing on the insulation, I have a question regarding the photos ... in fact especially this one ...

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 6VRAhT.jpg

I do not see a wall insulated but a wall to catch up because it takes the round ... it bulges in the middle pile pile at your red line, so I would say pile pile at the level of the planked fittings ...

I see that the crack on the right was plugged into the concrete some time ago, and that the crack reappeared a little more on the right up to the top of the wall ... and that the other side is not better ...

Personally in your case I take care of surrounding the two facades so that it does not move, unless you are definitely sure that nothing moves.

To do this it's simple you make a mark on each side of each crack, no matter the place, but I would measure in the middle of the hanger .... so two mark that you will protect to be able to measure again later ... You will therefore measure the distance between your two marks, and by regularly checking you will know if it still moves and how much as a function of time (roughly) ...

Personally I would opt for large round steel bar with threads at each end receiving a large nut, with a cross of Saint Andrew (or something else approaching;)) in order to cross each wall and maintain it. one towards the other by pressing on the pinion ...

It is not a crazy or complicated or expensive job, but in my opinion before hiding your wall behind an insulator you should perpetuate it.

So I come back later after studying the details in more detail :) ...

see you later
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