Sound insulation but not thermal (what material?)

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seb1000
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Sound insulation but not thermal (what material?)

by seb1000 » 08/02/12, 22:25

Hello everyone,

I don't know if I chose the right place to post ...

my situation :
the room / lounge in which my wood stove is located is above the petiot room.
I would like that when I watch TV in the living room or when we receive friends, the noise does not bother the baby to sleep.
the floor is simply wooden, supported by joists, it has a lot of years, and is covered with carpet for the moment and it is not final.
I would like to isolate this floor acoustically: I don't care to hear impact noises when the little one walks in his room but I don't want him to hear the sounds of conversation or TV. I also don't want to thermally insulate the floor.

anyone have ideas or proposals for materials
:?:
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by Christophe » 08/02/12, 23:07

Mmm a 2nd or 3rd layer of carpet? : Cheesy:
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by dedeleco » 09/02/12, 00:56

To stop the waves, sounds, light, radio, you need alternating layers of strong and weak indices, very different.
for sound, the index, like the speed of sound, is the square root of mechanical resistance over density.
So we have to alternate layers, light with heavy solid, such as iron plate, aluminum or lead (thin) on light (insulating with air, carpet, or cork) alternated in several layers, without any leakage in corners .
It is much more effective than a single layer of light as thick carpet on the floor, alternating the layers with very large differences in speed of sound.

Double or triple glazing is much more acoustic insulator (multiplicative), than thermally (additive), for this reason.
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Re: Acoustic but not thermal insulation (which material?

by Obamot » 09/02/12, 07:46

Material:
- heavy and high density => good sound insulation
(but poor thermal insulators, because very heat conductors => for example cold bridges in construction, where condensation immediately forms).
- light and low density => good thermal insulation (but bad sound insulators, because very easily put into vibration by the sounds => for example the membranes of the loudspeakers are light at best “acoustic correctors”).

seb1000 wrote:Hello everyone,

I don't know if I chose the right place to post ...

my situation :
the room / lounge in which my wood stove is located is above the petiot room.
I would like that when I watch TV in the living room or when we receive friends, the noise does not bother the baby to sleep.
the floor is simply wooden, supported by joists, it has a lot of years, and is covered with carpet for the moment and it is not final.
I would like to isolate this floor acoustically: I don't care to hear impact noises when the little one walks in his room but I don't want him to hear the sounds of conversation or TV. I also don't want to thermally insulate the floor.

anyone have ideas or proposals for materials
:?:

Adding layers of carpet, will improve thermal insulation, which you do not want, so that the pet does not catch cold ...

In this case we could assume that there is no solution by modifying the layout, since theoretically only a heavy and high density material like those mentioned by Dedeleco (lead, iron or even concrete screed) would effectively stop the sounds . But you can indeed combine the disadvantages to make it an asset.

In this perspective, some tracks:
- use wireless headphones with the TV as soon as the baby is in bed, and / or use the subtitling channels when they are available, and / or record the programs that interest you and watch them during the day - which allows you to go to bed early, since at night it is made for sleeping and not for watching TV : Mrgreen: - what solves your biggest immediate problem;

- avoid loud voices in the evening (this too is easy to do and it costs nothing);

- invite your friends at reasonable times, even at noon ...;

- invite the son to participate occasionally in this type of evening (the biological rhythm of the children is not the same compared to ours: therefore contrary to what we previously believed a night activity would not bother them and would even be beneficial, it is in the morning that they would need to sleep, as revealed by a recent serious university study.)

- if that is not enough and the configuration of the premises allows it:
-> a) you should recover the heat from the chimney through an exchanger, to lower the energy recovered in a duct
descending the air flow to the lower floor by an efficient electric fan reaching up to 30cm from ground level ... then installing a tiled floor good thickness earthenware and properly placed on the floor of your living room / TV, possibly previously protected by 5mm of plywood => before smoothing it a thin chappe ad hoc (the whole, with the earthenware posed on this cap, will isolate phonically with a coef, close to that of glass, which is already not so bad, since we use it in recording studios. ..), then lay a woven carpet on a thick rubberized backing, in order to lay it over the cold tiles.
-> b) you can also arrange for the tiling to be cleared in front of and under the stove, then around and up behind, so that by its radiation heats and diffuses heat gently in the floor the screed and the tiling (a "plus" which remains minimal since it will not avoid the use of a heat exchanger ... but which will be a big plus in terms of safety to avoid setting the carpet on fire!)

Explanation: the tiles and the chappe will not thermally insulate, but will still form a barrier, which is why I suggest the solution of the circulator.

To see if your floor would support the significant weight of a tile and its support.

But in your place I would combine and combine these different possibilities with each other.
Last edited by Obamot the 09 / 02 / 12, 12: 45, 1 edited once.
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by minguinhirigue » 09/02/12, 11:05

In addition to the metal solutions offered by Deldeco, there are systems suitable for wooden floors, such as fermacell sol dry screeds.

On the image below you will see that you can reduce airborne noise (R'wr in logarithmic scale) in several ways:
- From below: 50mm of open fiber insulation between beams, supported on a batten or on a rigid panel with open ports, finished with a dense lower plate (FERMACELL type) possibly on flexible Z support.
- From above: fiber-cement panels or other dense panel (OSB3 or 4), with tongue-and-groove assembly, placed on a resilient panel (mineral wool, cork, wood fiber, etc.) and to optimize everything, we can still put it all on honeycomb type supports, depending on the product the floor complex varies from 30 to 90mm!

Image

Another solution is that proposed by Obamot, with a floating screed, but I only recommend it if you are sure of your wooden floor (it should not be rather rigid). If you want to take the opportunity to install a heated floor, this can be a good solution.
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by dedeleco » 09/02/12, 11:19

Fermacell applies the only possible solution of dense, light alternating layers which attenuate by reflection waves on the multiple interfaces with large difference in speed of sound propagation.
It is also necessary to avoid any hole or slot allowing the sounds to pass through (well sealed).
If too expensive, you can make the diapers yourself, dense rigid, light soft, of all kinds.
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by minguinhirigue » 09/02/12, 11:28

I agree, we can vary the materials according to the prices, the principle is identical.

In old floors, the solution used was sometimes cumbersome:
- fill the spaces between the slag beam (sands, and miscellaneous waste) [mass]
- lay a deck on beams on various resilient strips (cork, fabrics, etc.) [depreciation]
- again a bed of sand [mass & damping against impact noise]
- on which are laid paving stones, or paving [mass]
- joists or other separation necessary to lay a beautiful floor [depreciation] ...
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by Christophe » 09/02/12, 12:47

A very economical solution would be to stick boxes of eggs to the ceiling from below :) but you have to like the style : Cheesy:

Good no joke (although it works the egg boxes!), It would be necessary to know to what extent seb can intervene in the work (= permanent heavy work or temporary solution?) ...
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by Obamot » 09/02/12, 13:07

No, egg carton boxes are used only to rehabilitate "At best and at low cost" a room unsuitable for the exercise of the musical practice at the origin, by breaking the parasitic reflections and echoes. It is the most economical acoustic recovery corrector that is: dot bar.
(Do not forget to remove the eggs before laying) : Mrgreen:

Gypsum fiber, it's not cement fiber, be careful. It is an intermediate solution of the order of the sound correction as praised by Dedelco, we do not really know why (probably because he does not take the weighted dB scale in his comparisons.).

Because in fact we invest a lot of money for a result that is not optimal (heavy material of high density = good sound insulation, while a material not heavy enough will transmit noise easily, at home I have a tile concrete with glued wood parquet, and well we can hear what is happening anyway ... then with plaster it would be peanut to 3 dB weighted close which doubles the sound pressure in dB (A) ..., I remind you => do not take seriously the comparisons of manufacturers that in dB (A) (weighted), that is to say which correspond to the auditory perception of the human being, and not the theoretical one ( SPL) calibrated to zero dB of anechoic rooms ...).
Last edited by Obamot the 09 / 02 / 12, 13: 14, 1 edited once.
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by aerialcastor » 09/02/12, 13:14

minguinhirigue wrote:I agree, we can vary the materials according to the prices, the principle is identical.

In old floors, the solution used was sometimes cumbersome:
- fill the spaces between the slag beam (sands, and miscellaneous waste) [mass]
- lay a deck on beams on various resilient strips (cork, fabrics, etc.) [depreciation]
- again a bed of sand [mass & damping against impact noise]
- on which are laid paving stones, or paving [mass]
- joists or other separation necessary to lay a beautiful floor [depreciation] ...


I pretty much applied the same method on a wooden floor of a (very) old building and did an acoustic control, the result was better than in a new construction with concrete floor.
I do not remember exactly the composition of the floor, I must find the report but there I am in the office.

Basically it was from bottom to top:

Between the joists:
- a little glass wool
- batten nailing on the edge of the joists to put a "floor" between the joists at 5cm below the top of the joists.
- Installation of sand and rubble (in my corner we call that of the sailor) on this floor to the top of the joist is 5cm
thick.

On the joists:

- resilient flatex tape
- OSB floor
- Glass wool panel
- Agglo wood floor
- Finishing (seagrass, tiles, floating parquet or linoleum depending on the location)

Image

I also implemented a dry slab with fermacell. It is less efficient (but sufficient) very comfortable to work, fast but expensive.
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