Hello
All new to the forum I will start by saying congratulations for all that I read on the different subjects.
Owner of a Morvan boiler installed by a plumber 3 years ago, in parallel with the fuel boiler that I installed ten years ago and following various readings on this forum, I intend to modify my heating circuit a little bit, and also install a buffer tank.
Does my diagram seem correct to you? in green what I would like to add
https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... YElju0.doc
Until the maximum notice, I tell you soon
Martrees
My fuel oil heating plan, is it ok?
1) Seems a bit complicated to me; 4 circulators ... There must be a way to make it simpler, cheaper and less consuming electricity!
2) It all depends on your intentions: prioritize the wood, while having continuous heating (buffer) and keep the fuel only for "cases where" ("frost free" absences, ...) or alternate fuel and wood at the daily.
Of course, today we can only recommend option 1, provided you have enough wood at low cost. In this case, you need a "big buffer" and you can almost "neutralize" the fuel boiler, which is "in reserve" in some way ...
3) In this case, I suggest you take inspiration from the diagram at the end of the Fröling catalog. It's "pro", no complaints.
http://www.froeling.com/images/stories/ ... rbo_FR.pdf
The fuel / wood basucle is autoimatic, managed by the regulation of the wood boiler (via a 3-way valve). In hypothesis 1 above (maximizing the wood), you can simply put a T with a 1/4 turn tap and manage by hand!
4) Pay particular attention to cold returns in your wood-fired boiler, without a "bypass" with a 3-way valve calibrated at 60 ° [this exists in a kit, like a "thermovar"]; the boiler will condense; condensation + fumes = corrosion; risk of "announced death" of your wood boiler in a few years (this of course depends on the temperature in your heating circuit!). On the Fröling diagram, it is the "shortcut" on the left, just before the wood-fired boiler.
2) It all depends on your intentions: prioritize the wood, while having continuous heating (buffer) and keep the fuel only for "cases where" ("frost free" absences, ...) or alternate fuel and wood at the daily.
Of course, today we can only recommend option 1, provided you have enough wood at low cost. In this case, you need a "big buffer" and you can almost "neutralize" the fuel boiler, which is "in reserve" in some way ...
3) In this case, I suggest you take inspiration from the diagram at the end of the Fröling catalog. It's "pro", no complaints.
http://www.froeling.com/images/stories/ ... rbo_FR.pdf
The fuel / wood basucle is autoimatic, managed by the regulation of the wood boiler (via a 3-way valve). In hypothesis 1 above (maximizing the wood), you can simply put a T with a 1/4 turn tap and manage by hand!
4) Pay particular attention to cold returns in your wood-fired boiler, without a "bypass" with a 3-way valve calibrated at 60 ° [this exists in a kit, like a "thermovar"]; the boiler will condense; condensation + fumes = corrosion; risk of "announced death" of your wood boiler in a few years (this of course depends on the temperature in your heating circuit!). On the Fröling diagram, it is the "shortcut" on the left, just before the wood-fired boiler.
0 x
Hello
In fact I am paying cheap wood for the moment, not even at all if it is not the essence of the chainsaw and the fuel to bring it home but it is minimal.
And yes I got two balloons of 1500L each.
The thing is that I will not all want to redo my installation, and inspired by what I had seen montages on this forum, d'ulysse I told myself that adding two circulators is not a big expense.
As for the cold return in my boiler it is the circulator just behind the boiler, green circuit (to come)
Do you think I need to add an expansion vessel?
Thank you
In fact I am paying cheap wood for the moment, not even at all if it is not the essence of the chainsaw and the fuel to bring it home but it is minimal.
And yes I got two balloons of 1500L each.
The thing is that I will not all want to redo my installation, and inspired by what I had seen montages on this forum, d'ulysse I told myself that adding two circulators is not a big expense.
As for the cold return in my boiler it is the circulator just behind the boiler, green circuit (to come)
Do you think I need to add an expansion vessel?
Thank you
0 x
Hello
After researching the net and several phone calls to suppliers (brush, richardson ...), I realized that termovar, laddomat 21 or the one recommended by Morvan, recycling systems, well it's not given
So I come back to my plan, and don't you think that I will already be able to recover the circulator that I had put on my fuel boiler circuit ?. The circulator which is above the wood boiler should be enough for my circuit, right?
After researching the net and several phone calls to suppliers (brush, richardson ...), I realized that termovar, laddomat 21 or the one recommended by Morvan, recycling systems, well it's not given
So I come back to my plan, and don't you think that I will already be able to recover the circulator that I had put on my fuel boiler circuit ?. The circulator which is above the wood boiler should be enough for my circuit, right?
0 x
1) expansion vessels: the entire circuit is interconnected, so the pressure is the same everywhere. The question of the number of vessels does not arise. On the other hand, the capacity must be proportional to your pads: the more water you have, the higher the volume corresponding to the expansion; So absolutely put an opus of buffers corresponding to the total volume!
2) thermovar (purchased or manufactured with a 3-way valve calibrated at 65 ° + circulator): I would not do without it. It's like putting a brake on your car on the grounds that it's expensive!
You screw up your boiler, that's all. Well, the very old boilers, cast iron, very thick, resisted. A "modern" steel boiler is hopeless. It is a question of return temperature no circulator: the boiler must not unload before reaching 65 ° as quickly as possible (therefore the water remains in the boiler so that the temperature rises very quickly - which in the apssage also improves combustion and efficiency) and the return water should only enter 65 °. To do this, we install a loop on the boiler and then "tap" gradually as the temperature of the wood boiler rises. See doc Fröling, left part.
PS: do not trust the "experiences" of people who have had their boiler for 2 or 3 or 5 years or 7 years. It may be the 8th or 10th or 12th year that it will drop!
2) thermovar (purchased or manufactured with a 3-way valve calibrated at 65 ° + circulator): I would not do without it. It's like putting a brake on your car on the grounds that it's expensive!
You screw up your boiler, that's all. Well, the very old boilers, cast iron, very thick, resisted. A "modern" steel boiler is hopeless. It is a question of return temperature no circulator: the boiler must not unload before reaching 65 ° as quickly as possible (therefore the water remains in the boiler so that the temperature rises very quickly - which in the apssage also improves combustion and efficiency) and the return water should only enter 65 °. To do this, we install a loop on the boiler and then "tap" gradually as the temperature of the wood boiler rises. See doc Fröling, left part.
PS: do not trust the "experiences" of people who have had their boiler for 2 or 3 or 5 years or 7 years. It may be the 8th or 10th or 12th year that it will drop!
0 x
Hello
It’s not that I want to do the heavy lifting that persists, but on the plan I put in my first message I show that I want to put a circulator (green circuit on the plan) let's call A on the hot start which sends on the return of the boiler, so in my opinion the temperature rise will be realized, as for a thermovar, my concern is more to know if the already existing circulator call the B will send enough in the circuit.
In my idea as soon as I start the fire of my boiler the circulator A starts, and when the temperature is at 65 ° the existing circulator B starts, but A continues to run I think to connect it to a temperature probe in the chimney flue.More fire it stops
As for the recycling kit, I do not know about you, but in my department, they do not know.Ni termovar, nor laddomat 21.
They just offer me the Morvan kit (because I contacted the commercial of Morvan) which does not give priority to heating, but directly loads the balloon. It takes a long time to wait
As for the heating engineer who installed the wood boiler for me, he looked at me like a Martian (I'm not a Martian martyr
)
I don't know if it's because we are in the south but a good point of view for heating professionals .....
So that's why I want to try to make a max myself to understand a maximum of things before starting.
As for the vase, 1% of the total volume is OK?
It’s not that I want to do the heavy lifting that persists, but on the plan I put in my first message I show that I want to put a circulator (green circuit on the plan) let's call A on the hot start which sends on the return of the boiler, so in my opinion the temperature rise will be realized, as for a thermovar, my concern is more to know if the already existing circulator call the B will send enough in the circuit.
In my idea as soon as I start the fire of my boiler the circulator A starts, and when the temperature is at 65 ° the existing circulator B starts, but A continues to run I think to connect it to a temperature probe in the chimney flue.More fire it stops
As for the recycling kit, I do not know about you, but in my department, they do not know.Ni termovar, nor laddomat 21.
They just offer me the Morvan kit (because I contacted the commercial of Morvan) which does not give priority to heating, but directly loads the balloon. It takes a long time to wait
As for the heating engineer who installed the wood boiler for me, he looked at me like a Martian (I'm not a Martian martyr
)
I don't know if it's because we are in the south but a good point of view for heating professionals .....
So that's why I want to try to make a max myself to understand a maximum of things before starting.
As for the vase, 1% of the total volume is OK?
0 x
As for the vase, 1% of the total volume is OK?
According to my memories, certainly not !!
See on econology and google the posts on this subject, and values !!
It all depends on the temperature amplitudes, but I would put 7 to 10% to be quiet, because otherwise accelerated death of the membrane of the vase, with more leaks by overpressures and change every 3 to 5 years, most common heating failure.
Otherwise the good old cast iron boilers are much more resistant than modern scrap boilers to corrosion !!
Souvenir of an old child who only saw cast iron and not scrap metal to heat wood !!
In iron, ideal as an annuity for manufacturers !!
0 x
it's closer to 10%
1) as an alternative to closed expansion vessels: the open vessel above the highest part of the installation, open to the outside, in the attic for example; beware of frost ... The level varies "freely" because the vessel (or balloon) is connected to the air and its level varies according to the expansion of the water in the circuit ... The simplest, a plug "too full "emerging on the roof ... When it cools, if it overflows, it flows on the roof ... Before the installation of the membrane vessels, that's how it was done.
2) "laddomat" or other: the 1st Morvan kit offered here, on this document, is what we are talking about: http://www.selfclimat.com/Morvan/Plaque ... centre.pdf
As indicated, it avoids the dew point on the return of the boiler and lengthens the life of the boiler! It is however clear.
So it exists, and it is recommended. Professionals who don't know, my God! Plumbers who install boilers without knowing what condensation is?
Agree with dedéléco that on the old boilers not melting, it didn't matter. But on modern steel boilers, yes!
3) With a buffer such as you envision it, you have to give up the "stupid" idea that the boiler heats your circuit and the "overflow" goes into the buffer. The logic is as follows: it is the buffer the hot source that heats the house; the temperature makes the "yoyo" there; when the "stock of calories" is too low (middle temperature begins to drop), we launch an outbreak; we re-fill the stock.
It's like the yogurts in the fridge! Or milk packs if you prefer ... We do not wait to want a yogurt to ahceter (well, it can happen!) ...
In the end, the result, provided that your buffer is isolated, is better:
- outbreaks always at the bottom therefore better combustion / better performance
- less temperature oscillations in the house, therefore for the same quantity of calories, a better "sensation" of heat (it is the sensation that counts; not the temperature; the feeling is a "mixture" between the temperature of air and that of the walls; if you let the house cool down, even with 22 ° on the thermometer, you will have the feeling of being cold! Result, you will overheat, so waste calories, when you are there, and it will be very hot when you leave, while the wall warms up) ...
So I actually advise you to unload the boiler in the buffer, with a recycling kit to protect it. And the heating starts from the buffer, as it left from your fuel boiler (in fact, your fuel boiler probably also had a small reserve, which it heated; simply, since it is easy to light up, it was very short cycles; there, with the wood, you do the same thing but in "mahousse"!).
In addition, you will be much more free to choose the moment of the outbreak.
Finally, even by feeding the heating circuit directly from the boiler, you will have inertia: do not expect to be hot before one or two hours ...
Well, this is only my opinion, as usual ... As I often say on this forum or others, afterwards, everyone is free to choose ...
2) "laddomat" or other: the 1st Morvan kit offered here, on this document, is what we are talking about: http://www.selfclimat.com/Morvan/Plaque ... centre.pdf
As indicated, it avoids the dew point on the return of the boiler and lengthens the life of the boiler! It is however clear.
So it exists, and it is recommended. Professionals who don't know, my God! Plumbers who install boilers without knowing what condensation is?
Agree with dedéléco that on the old boilers not melting, it didn't matter. But on modern steel boilers, yes!
3) With a buffer such as you envision it, you have to give up the "stupid" idea that the boiler heats your circuit and the "overflow" goes into the buffer. The logic is as follows: it is the buffer the hot source that heats the house; the temperature makes the "yoyo" there; when the "stock of calories" is too low (middle temperature begins to drop), we launch an outbreak; we re-fill the stock.
It's like the yogurts in the fridge! Or milk packs if you prefer ... We do not wait to want a yogurt to ahceter (well, it can happen!) ...
In the end, the result, provided that your buffer is isolated, is better:
- outbreaks always at the bottom therefore better combustion / better performance
- less temperature oscillations in the house, therefore for the same quantity of calories, a better "sensation" of heat (it is the sensation that counts; not the temperature; the feeling is a "mixture" between the temperature of air and that of the walls; if you let the house cool down, even with 22 ° on the thermometer, you will have the feeling of being cold! Result, you will overheat, so waste calories, when you are there, and it will be very hot when you leave, while the wall warms up) ...
So I actually advise you to unload the boiler in the buffer, with a recycling kit to protect it. And the heating starts from the buffer, as it left from your fuel boiler (in fact, your fuel boiler probably also had a small reserve, which it heated; simply, since it is easy to light up, it was very short cycles; there, with the wood, you do the same thing but in "mahousse"!).
In addition, you will be much more free to choose the moment of the outbreak.
Finally, even by feeding the heating circuit directly from the boiler, you will have inertia: do not expect to be hot before one or two hours ...
Well, this is only my opinion, as usual ... As I often say on this forum or others, afterwards, everyone is free to choose ...
0 x
Hello
I sent an email to morvan they advised me to install their LTC141 lifting kit
LOAD UNIT LTC
• Thermostatic kit composed of a thermal valve integrating a
thermostat calibrated at 60 ° C, a recycling circulator and a
insulating shell with three reading thermometers.
• Built-in thermostat - from the set temperature
- gradually opens the Buffer Balloon connection
to open it completely when the temperature reaches 10 ° C
Moreover.
• The LTC load unit protects the boiler against temperatures
back too low. Maintaining a temperature of
high and stable return helps reduce tar formation
and avoid the dew point.
• The charging unit is fitted with three shut-off valves for
facilitate any subsequent maintenance.
• Max. operating: 6 bar
• Supply voltage: 230 VAC 50 Hz
• Opening temperature: 55 ° C
Connection Boiler power Weight Kg Ref. ?
LTC 141 1 ”1/4 F 50 KW 4,90 520 859 472,00 €
LTC 171 1 ”1/2 F 80 KW 5,70 520 864 506,80
www.selfclimat.com info@selfclimat.com
Well, I'll see tomorrow how much I can touch it at my brush, it may be more reasonable.
And then I see the story of my buffer balloons.
I think that even if I don't install them right away I can already manage the boiler a little better?
I sent an email to morvan they advised me to install their LTC141 lifting kit
LOAD UNIT LTC
• Thermostatic kit composed of a thermal valve integrating a
thermostat calibrated at 60 ° C, a recycling circulator and a
insulating shell with three reading thermometers.
• Built-in thermostat - from the set temperature
- gradually opens the Buffer Balloon connection
to open it completely when the temperature reaches 10 ° C
Moreover.
• The LTC load unit protects the boiler against temperatures
back too low. Maintaining a temperature of
high and stable return helps reduce tar formation
and avoid the dew point.
• The charging unit is fitted with three shut-off valves for
facilitate any subsequent maintenance.
• Max. operating: 6 bar
• Supply voltage: 230 VAC 50 Hz
• Opening temperature: 55 ° C
Connection Boiler power Weight Kg Ref. ?
LTC 141 1 ”1/4 F 50 KW 4,90 520 859 472,00 €
LTC 171 1 ”1/2 F 80 KW 5,70 520 864 506,80
www.selfclimat.com info@selfclimat.com
Well, I'll see tomorrow how much I can touch it at my brush, it may be more reasonable.
And then I see the story of my buffer balloons.
I think that even if I don't install them right away I can already manage the boiler a little better?
0 x
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