Storage and geo thermal phase shift in soils

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Obamot
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Storage and geo thermal phase shift in soils




by Obamot » 07/02/11, 07:23

Topic splitted, in particular, since: heating-insulation / wall-angle-insulation-with-glass-wool-t10429.html

Edit to insert the post from dedeleco wrote:And even better, to heat with the heat of the summer sun kept underground for the winter for less, once become habitual in new homes low consumption, consuming nothing in perpetuity and decentralized locally by subdivisions and even flag !!

[...] It's not decay, it's smart growth for the future of our children.


... and yes, reflection made. Since it is possible to safely store Co2 in the depths ... why not store heat in these "Confinement pockets" in addition to groundwater.

The cost of drilling is really not a problem ... the oil companies are drilling well to pump up their dirty oil! Both use these budgets to store at much smaller depths (between 30 and 300 m according to the ETHF), directly from the heat during the beautiful season. The whole thing has been stored by buildings that have become real heat traps!

The very serious Federal Polytechnic School of Zurich studied it ...>

... then we would not even have to look to isolate all the existing housing stock, which is a real colander, let's face it.

The goal is to use the colander effect to capture the heat heat diffused by the sun!

... at a stroke of a single, most of the current housing stock would not be so obsolete as that!

Afterwards, we can still tax EPFZ researchers with eco-tartuffes : Mrgreen: it's not them who still have something to prove on a technical level ... If they say it works, we can believe them!

Dedelco, I did not believe in this idea of ​​storing heat in the ground, until the day I saw this animation of the EPFZ ...

Alain G wrote:Obamot

Obamot wrote:Ok, same as for Minérgie-P



The norm obliges a VCM but the double flow is not obligatory, on the Novoclimat yes!

Of course we have a lot to learn from you Alain Gand we are grateful to you, so much so that the term "Canadian well" is also used ^^

But in this case, the limit is set by the maximum allowed consumption (ie 10w / m2).

For the rest we also have our "graiiind north" with La Brévine ...> or the temperature goes down to -40 ° C ... what serves us as "laboratory" ^^
And of course the high mountains ...

But in the lowlands we rarely go below -10 ° C, which is why it is not obligatory (even if they are possibly wrong, it is the conso-max that prevails ^^)
Alain G wrote:Obamot

Ok, same as for Minérgie-P


The norm obliges a VCM but the double flow is not obligatory, on the Novoclimat yes!
... so it will surely come with the storage of heat in the ground;) we are working on it!

Image

In pockets, even the water tables ...

[Edit]:

Use of phase shift fluids:


Christophe wrote:Synthesis message on thermal storage in phase change materials from clean-energy-storage-t10905.html

dedeleco wrote:You can store thermal energy in quite a lot of body like hydrated and dehydrated salt and phase changes:
with commercial realization:
http://www.climatewell.com/index.html#/ ... w-it-works
and even make an ecolo cllimatizer:
http://www.climatewell.com/index.html#/ ... w-it-works

The lime stores 0,32KWh / kg of CaO (ie 320KWh / m3 but 900 ° C of concentrated solar energy is required.
Gypsum or plaster stores much less, but at lower T 163 ° C !!
sea ​​salt too.
Calcium chloride too.
http://fred.elie.free.fr/chlorure_calcium.htm
The number of bodies storing energy as well is huge with all the possibilities and temperatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrate
http://scienceamusante.net/wiki/index.p ... de_chaleur
A list of real possibilities:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat%C3%A9r ... ermique%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_Change_Material
At human temperature less than 100 ° C is stored at max 70 at 100 KWh / m3

The earth (clay, rock, etc.) free under our feet at + 36 ° C above the ambient stores 10KWh / m3 (between 20 ° C and 56 ° C).

Paraffin at 60 ° C 60KWh / m3 approximately (dodecanoid).

Overall view of the capacity possibilities 0,1KWh / L = 100KWh / m3 depending on the temperature:
http://www.bine.info/hauptnavigation/pu ... el=1436%29
Image


See as well: https://www.econologie.com/stockage-de- ... -4308.html
Last edited by Obamot the 22 / 11 / 11, 12: 58, 6 edited once.
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by dedeleco » 07/02/11, 13:44

Obamot begins to be convinced, but the shallow Canadian well is useless in summer because the earth is heating up too fast (in the USA with 100 ° F several weeks with certainty and the heat in Europe is almost never excessive at + 38 ° C and 100% humidity night and day weeks, to the point of investing in this type of shallow Canadian well, in Europe there is 8 ° C less and never 100% humidity with 38 ° C at night , the worst !!) and so well designed underground to more than 3m deep, it can store the heat of summer to make it winter and it is indistinguishable from the first solution that does not need to an underground water tank, excessively expensive (large pool that must do 1000m3 to keep the heat on 4 months)
Underground drilling is sufficient by checking that there is no underground river, if not by changing places, or cement injections to seal.
It is not necessary to put it under the house, but anywhere in a deep garden like on 100m2 with 25 holes at 12 at depth 15m spaced from 2m allow storage for properly insulated solar pavilion (needing less than 10000KWh in addition to winter solar thermal heating, 20 to 60m2, whose excess energy in summer is stored underground).
http://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm
This is the best Canadian sump for pavilion residences.
Max savings in CO2 possible.
Price decreasing if realized in series for a perpetual operation gratis for hardly more than one with two boilers, which they are to change much more often (10 to 15 years) !!!!
The costs of development studies (especially lowering the price of microrobot drilling) do not reach the 1 / 1000 of a nuclear power plant, given the simplicity and that it is especially important to use this well. who exist !!

In addition it is simple enough to constitute a beautiful hack very effective in CO2 after insulation of a house, rather than hacking burners that always make them CO2, even at good performance !!!!!
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by Obamot » 07/02/11, 14:12

dedeleco wrote:Obamot begins to be convinced, but the shallow Canadian well is useless in summer because the earth is heating up too fast (in the USA with 100 ° F several weeks with certainty and the heat in Europe is almost never excessive at + 38 ° C and 100% humidity night and day weeks, to the point of investing in this type of shallow Canadian well, in Europe there is 8 ° C less and never 100% humidity with 38 ° C at night , the worst !!) and so well designed underground to more than 3m deep, it can store the heat of summer to make it winter and it is indistinguishable from the first solution that does not need to an underground water tank, excessively expensive (large pool that must do 1000m3 to keep the heat on 4 months)
Underground drilling is sufficient by checking that there is no underground river, if not by changing places, or cement injections to seal.
It is not necessary to put it under the house, but anywhere in a deep garden like on 100m2 with 25 holes at 12 at depth 15m spaced from 2m allow storage for properly insulated solar pavilion (needing less than 10000KWh in addition to winter solar thermal heating, 20 to 60m2, whose excess energy in summer is stored underground).

This is the best Canadian sump for pavilion residences.
Max savings in CO2 possible.
Price decreasing if realized in series for a perpetual operation gratis for hardly more than one with two boilers, which they are to change much more often (10 to 15 years) !!!!
The costs of development studies (especially lowering the price of microrobot drilling) do not reach the 1 / 1000 of a nuclear power plant, given the simplicity and that it is especially important to use this well. who exist !!

In addition it is simple enough to constitute a beautiful hack very effective in CO2 after insulation of a house, rather than hacking burners that always make them CO2, even at good performance !!!!!
First it is better to drill to store heat than to bury ... Co2, as these morons would like to do ... : Evil:

Then I realized that with geothermal energy, it is not always easy to find heat in the basement. On the other hand nothing prevents the insufler to reuse later ... I did not do the math, but store the equivalent of 10w / m2 of living space for the three or four months the coldest, it does not must not look very far in need of storage! So it's more a question of belief, as I've heard it sometimes, but pragmatism and study to find the formula that goes well. And as the ETH is doing, I want to be the first sheep to follow them : Cheesy:

By cons yes, indeed, it is an idea to which I like to believe dear cousins ​​éconologues ...! Image
Last edited by Obamot the 13 / 02 / 11, 07: 53, 1 edited once.
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by dedeleco » 07/02/11, 15:15

The 10W / m2 figure is probably exactly 10KWh / m2, I think ??? to be precise and clear.
To compare to the typical French house at 200KWh / m2 !! from 70 years to 90 !!
I think there is no need to go down so low, which requires a great care of insulation, prohibiting the slightest mistake!
The BBC in my opinion at 50KWh / m2 is more than enough.

In fact, underground storage involves the diffusion of this heat into the earth over a length as the square root of the time which is around 3m of summer for winter (function of the earth, reaching the double with soils rocky good heat diffusers, like granite).
thus, the storage volume with this diffusion is at least twice the cube of this diffusion length, ie 6m cubed.
So we can not store on a smaller volume and so if we want a fairly high temperature at the end, there is a minimal amount of summer energy to store.
It is located in the heat stored in a volume of soil of 10m cubed 1000m3 or about 1KJ / liter ° C by heating from 20 to 56 ° C (+ 36 ° C) an energy of 10 ^ 3x10 ^ 6x36 / 3600 = 10000KWh
for 1000m3 of earth.
So all it takes is that the house spends little more for it to work, given that solar collectors in winter are not ineffective.
This fact shows that the isolation of the house no longer needs to be too excessive.
It is better to improve solar collectors and even increase their surface area.
The optimum is a function of the price of the various possible jobs.
By drilling on a volume 3 times bigger, it is even possible to heat a poorly insulated old house to 200KWh / m2 is 30000KWh / year without isolating it much better, with 100M2 solar thermal collectors !!!

The optimum is a function of prices that can change significantly in the future if the price of drilling decreases, in my opinion very feasible, well before the profitable injection of CO2 underground.

Finally, it is certain that this system is more effective collectively, for several pavilions or apartments at a time.

It is better to store outside the foundations, to avoid the problems of movement of the soil by heating and drying, except new house where it was planned.
.
The main difficulty is in the brains to accept this simple possibility completely neglected by professionals.
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Storage of heat in the soil




by Obamot » 08/02/11, 08:27

I am not an electrician, but the amount of energy already naturally present in the basement, represents an almost unused power of 3'000 megawatts (MW) by way of example for Switzerland ...>, the equivalent of the production of all nuclear power plants currently in service for the same territory!

As you suggest, at -20m depth, the soil temperature remains stable! (between 8 ° and 12 ° C, and no longer depends on day, night, or seasons ...) This is a huge benefit for storage! Digging further down, in my corner we gain 1 ° C all 33m. Except to find a hot aquifer, we arrive between 13 ° and 17 ° C at -200m, without having stored anything yet!
The storage obviously makes it possible to be a better alternative than a PAC, in spite of the fact that these still eat ~ 25% to 30% of energy in electrical consumption and require investment and depreciation of the installation ... !

But, with Minergie-P passive houses, geothermal energy already provides 5 kW (without any heat storage => 8 kW maximum for ~ 120m)! That is already half of what this standard imposes! A PAC becomes a luxury, it is no longer even necessary!

The pre-storage of heat in the soil will certainly see the emergence of techniques similar to those used during mining prospecting, in order to detect as precisely as possible what is in the subsoil and at what depth . As with seismic and / or magnetometric readings. They will probably use the laying of small explosive charges to make local three-dimensional maps! Because at the regional level, we already have a good idea of ​​what is in the depths, and for quite some time.

The development of boreholes will have a triple advantage, that of allowing to detect aquifers deposits of shallow depths (~ 200m one can already find circulating fluids reaching temperatures of 15 ° C to 100 ° C!), Also mineral deposits even of phreatic pockets. These sectors will inevitably end up regrouping. Here is a kind of new Eldorado looming ... :D

Obviously the goal is to take advantage of a borehole to supply, not a single home, but a whole subdivision!

www.ader.ch wrote:Classification of geothermal resources

* Very low energy geothermal energy (<30 ° C): shallow aquifers, terrestrial probes, coupling with a heat pump.
* Low energy geothermal energy (30-100 ° C): deep aquifers or zones of thermal anomaly.
* Medium-energy geothermal energy (100-150 ° C): very deep aquifers or areas of shallow thermal anomaly, Hot Dry Rock technology (induced loop circulation in naturally low permeability rocks).
* High energy geothermal energy (150-350 ° C): deep aquifers in shallow thermal anomaly zones, Hot Dry Rock technology.


The advantage of storing heat in the ground is that we do not really care if we are actually going to find thermal energy already in latent state or not! Obviously if we find it, it's the jackpot!

And when we see this:

Image
http://www.ader.ch/energieaufutur/energ ... index2.php

... one wonders what is the use of drilling oil for heating homes, while we can find free energy directly with these holes? Ah, if to fill the pockets of tankers and stock speculators ...
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by dedeleco » 08/02/11, 23:53

Switzerland with its mountains has plenty of tunnels that can heat homes. I did not have an idea of ​​the possible power but this link gives 30000KW.
But still, they use a heat pump, rather useless by realizing a little better, harvesting hot water.
In France the degree by 33m is usual.
In volcanic regions, as in Auvergne, the volcanic heat is certainly enormous without going to great depth.
In Iceland it's not deep at all
A problem is that the rocks are cooled in the long run and can move by contraction?

If we heat up in summer by solar collectors, this problem is eliminated.

The heat of the sun is huge in summer, even on cheap rudimentary solar thermal collectors and so storing it for the winter even losing a significant proportion is really effective.

By grouping about ten pavilions for drilling as in Canada we must be able to heat properly without too much costly insulation work on old houses, nor too much to lose heat from summer to winter thanks to the collective size of Drilling (10000m3) that may be under common access channels.

It becomes interesting if the price of drilling by pavilion is that of 2 boilers, because the heating becomes gratis in perpetuity.

Finally to detect in the ground a few tens of meters, there is no need for explosive, a large mass, 30 300KG, tapping on the ground is enough, as when childhood big piles in earth !!
The most complex is the fine ultrasound analysis of the vibrations detected.
It lacks a single microrobot driller to pass the tubes.

We must especially avoid taking expensive mining technology to dig 10 20m, but especially make it cheap and simple, what the Japanese have done much better than us for the general public, as the microwave oven, simplification of the radar !!
Otherwise, at a tremendous price, it will remain centralized and heavy and uneconomical and therefore not motivating, so expensive as fuel, to give a rent well driller!
The pellets are a bit like that.
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by Obamot » 09/02/11, 09:00

dedeleco wrote:A problem is that the rocks are cooled in the long run and can move by contraction?
You may be right, but there is little chance amha! There is an effect a considerable mass which constitutes a big reserve. To draw in there would hardly change the ambient temperature since it comes from a natural atomic radiation! By the time we have exhausted ... And it says that below -20m the temperature remains stable. Moreover, if sand is used rather than a fluid, the big advantage is that even if the pipe explodes by compression, the principle will continue to work.
Now if it is an ethylene glycol type fluid and the pipe breaks, it is quite possible ... but at what time scale? A "U" shaped, PVC geothermal probe is tough and every hole small ... so the pressure is not concentrated at one point, but transfers easily to the rest of the mass without consequence, amha. The only risk is a non-homogeneous ground, but that, one must perceive it at the time of the drilling "of observation"! But that's not my specialty. :) Let's trust the guys in the business ...
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by Obamot » 10/02/11, 12:06

EDIT: post disappeared, but reconstituted hack23 wrote:Re, I would resume in detail later, but the heat recovery with 120cm PVC tubes for underfloor heating according to the same principle of tube is how? Well not good,
Of course it's cousin! :) Geothermal energy is just a plus

The thing is that between the roof / facade sensors and underfloor heating ... we store, either:
- in the soil by drilling (but that depends on the investment you want to put in, and / or the presence of favorable geothermal vein nearby).
- in a huge boiller, placed in the center of the house (as they do in Germany in some passive houses).

The problem noted by Dedelco is that the current techniques are still heavy (and therefore expensive). But even with these prices, we must be able to get by (see the link I give above) ...
Last edited by Obamot the 10 / 02 / 11, 21: 07, 2 edited once.
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Re: Storage of heat in the soil




by Christophe » 10/02/11, 12:12

Superb intervention (although I do not see the relationship with insulation ...) Obamot:

Obamot wrote:I am not an electrician, but the amount of energy already naturally present in the basement, represents an almost unused power of 3'000 megawatts (MW) by way of example for Switzerland ...>, the equivalent of the production of all nuclear power plants currently in service for the same territory!

As you suggest, at -20m depth, the soil temperature remains stable! (between 8 ° and 12 ° C, and no longer depends on day, night, or seasons ...) This is a huge benefit for storage! Digging further down, in my corner we gain 1 ° C all 33m. Except to find a hot aquifer, we arrive between 13 ° and 17 ° C at -200m, without having stored anything yet!
The storage obviously makes it possible to be a better alternative than a PAC, in spite of the fact that these still eat ~ 25% to 30% of energy in electrical consumption and require investment and depreciation of the installation ... !

But, with Minergie-P passive houses, geothermal energy already provides 5 kW (without any heat storage => 8 kW maximum for ~ 120m)! That is already half of what this standard imposes! A PAC becomes a luxury, it is no longer even necessary!

The pre-storage of heat in the soil will certainly see the emergence of techniques similar to those used during mining prospecting, in order to detect as precisely as possible what is in the subsoil and at what depth . As with seismic and / or magnetometric readings. They will probably use the laying of small explosive charges to make local three-dimensional maps! Because at the regional level, we already have a good idea of ​​what is in the depths, and for quite some time.

The development of boreholes will have a triple advantage, that of allowing to detect aquifers deposits of shallow depths (~ 200m one can already find circulating fluids reaching temperatures of 15 ° C to 100 ° C!), Also mineral deposits even of phreatic pockets. These sectors will inevitably end up regrouping. Here is a kind of new Eldorado looming ... :D

Obviously the goal is to take advantage of a borehole to supply, not a single home, but a whole subdivision!

www.ader.ch wrote:Classification of geothermal resources

* Very low energy geothermal energy (<30 ° C): shallow aquifers, terrestrial probes, coupling with a heat pump.
* Low energy geothermal energy (30-100 ° C): deep aquifers or zones of thermal anomaly.
* Medium-energy geothermal energy (100-150 ° C): very deep aquifers or areas of shallow thermal anomaly, Hot Dry Rock technology (induced loop circulation in naturally low permeability rocks).
* High energy geothermal energy (150-350 ° C): deep aquifers in shallow thermal anomaly zones, Hot Dry Rock technology.


The advantage of storing heat in the ground is that we do not really care if we are actually going to find thermal energy already in latent state or not! Obviously if we find it, it's the jackpot!

And when we see this:

Image
http://www.ader.ch/energieaufutur/energ ... index2.php

... one wonders what is the use of drilling oil for heating homes, while we can find free energy directly with these holes? Ah, if to fill the pockets of tankers and stock speculators ...


I copy your answer here (coincidence): https://www.econologie.com/forums/toreador-p ... 10451.html

To read and dig up: https://www.econologie.com/forums/geothermie ... t1871.html
Last edited by Christophe the 04 / 03 / 11, 08: 54, 1 edited once.
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by Gaston » 10/02/11, 12:18

Obamot wrote:The problem noted by Dedelco is that the current techniques are still heavy (and therefore expensive). But even with these prices, we must be able to get by (see the link I give above) ...
Financial profitability is difficult to obtain (as long as the price of energy is not prohibitive).

Storage in the center of the house is a good idea, but its surface is probably counted as a built-up area.
It therefore increases the cost of property taxes and housing tax by an amount that may exceed that of heating :frown:
It should also count in the initial investment the price of the land it occupies (200 € 500 € sqm in my region : Shock: )
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