Wall corner insulation with glass wool

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
green
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 83
Registration: 10/10/10, 18:44

Wall corner insulation with glass wool




by green » 01/02/11, 20:42

Hello,
Always anxious for the smallest detail and currently in full isolation, I came to a question to which I did not find an answer, so here it is:
The greater the thickness of an insulation, the better the efficiency, and therefore the insulation "works" in thickness.
Glass wool is made up of a multitude "layers"of crossed threads, so air is trapped between these layers.
Still in this deduction, the trapped air is close to the hot face of the insulation and the hotter it is.
The question I ask myself is: As with wood, does glass wool insulate better against the grain?
If this is the case, in the wall angles, is there a risk of a thermal bridge in case of laying as shown on the sketch because the air in contact with the hot face of the insulation can be in concact with a cold part in the same layer.
Do you think it's negligible or is it better to make a cut at 45 °?
At least, with wood wool the problem does not arise ...
I hope this sketch is quite explicit.
Goods.
Image
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 01/02/11, 23:22

Glass wool, or other such as wadding, blocks the air circulation in all directions by convection, laminar flow for viscosity flows in a highly divided environment, which blocks any possibility of convection and therefore it does not occur except pose not tight enough.
0 x
bidouille23
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1155
Registration: 21/06/09, 01:02
Location: Britain BZH powaaa
x 2




by bidouille23 » 02/02/11, 00:30

Bonjour,

if I can afford it, when a house heats have created a pressurized system, so house work under pressure not just with drafts;).

Either an insulation is the union of an insulator and a film to control the air (a vapor brake or vapor barrier as I would say more just after), the air control can also be assured by the insulation but have spoken about panels of wood wool or cellulose wadding or cork, but not glass wool or hello lungs (for info the structure of LDV fibers are exactly the same as those asbestos only difference they are 8 times bigger arff so it would be only for the sake of your health and for that of all those who will pass at your home. APPLY A STEAM BRAKE (and not the craft that is on it not to buy of the roll made for) and connected the leashes with the prescribed overlap and respect at least these two points during and after laying (well it's a advice me I work in almost every day :) and it's complete mask combines and gloves:

1) allow to ventilate the place where the glass wool break was made during the rest of the work
2) did not live the place before a month by ventilating every day and sucked the places.

If not for laying if you want to avoid thermal bridges, you must degrease one of the panels (top or wall in the case shown) at their junction to create a double angle (like a step) in this case have a nickel insulating junction (in any case much better than an edge on board).

Preferred to lay the insulation behind the scrap uprights;) the iron is wood conductor all is well :) .

Always cut 5 mm more on all the cuts so that sticks everywhere.

When added a steam brake or vapor barrier have lacerated with a big knife cutter knives wool etc the craft of the insulation if there is otherwise there will be a bad migration of steam and all the problems that ensues.

Well cared for door surrounds, velux windows are critical points, especially when the steam brake break have tape and not with orange tape or the gray armed blaster have bought real tape vapor brake for difficult places good is 25 euros 60m kind but it is for the screw and it sticks even on concrete and stone, (there are other tape to make the connection with plaster plasters lime they are armed for the coating to hold well , there is way to do with the army band placo and Scotch;))

Steam brake, we put it on a breathable wall, because, as its name suggests, it brakes the steam;) so it must be able to migrate outside, otherwise it will stay on the wall or in the insulation who will become an arff driver, so when have bought his steam brake have taken care before knowing the permeability of his wall, and after that of the insulator and after have verified that that of the chosen film agree. So we will have a wall that allows more and more steam passage as we go outward;) Of course.

The vapor barrier when to him, and I let you guess what he does;), is placed on any kind of wall : Mrgreen: yes yes but necessarily controlled ventilation with so the breathing is the machine that makes it;).

In any case brake or brake steam or vapor barrier:

Have made good recoveries and have Scotch again with real scotch vapor brake (or so did not spend time and have said that they will not see when will be taken off behind the dubbing so c it's okay, it's up to you to see it's your house not mine :) )

Have taken great care of the various opening as well as pipe pipes ELECTRICAL SHEETS and other, have glue have Scotch put round of inner tube with tape for example on the files and sheath;), in short have made sure of no to have that the obligatory ventilation on the doors and windows etc (that do not have mouth especially not well on) (to give an example a home HQE does not have more than a banking card on the surface of forgotten holes, if not the test depression will not be ok)

I know that sometimes it's hard to do but can always try to do the best, all the effort put in the insulation will not be in the heating.

Definition of heating (learned at the school of civil engineering) l:
Compensate for loss from lack of insulation and air renewal (how many plumbers ask how is the house insulated?))


Finally it may be more expensive but the wadding or the wood wool does not get as much as a glass wool especially roll, and even after tamping there is not too much problem, the wool glass is made in ... green (of fear) no no or in glass of course, and the glass is ... comfortable haa no no non conductive of course;), or if have cup glass wool that is what's going on then ??? I'll let you know where the green : Shock: Ben yes got a heat conductor arff, paper or wood ben them, so do the calculation, you buy an insulator for 5 years 10 years 15 ??? Do not forget that unless we redo the isolation from the outside which is between us the top, we must be dumbfounded (do not forget the steam brake;)).

Good and good later and good luck and in case do not hesitate if I forget or say something wrong.

see you

hack
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 02/02/11, 03:16

Beware of peremptory affirmations without proof and judge yourself on documents and proofs !!
peremptory declaration:
the fiber structure of LDV are exactly the same as those of asbestos only difference they are 8 times bigger arff

Very wrong , the fibers of asbestos are much finer and subdivided to infinity and not the glass wool, 1000 times bigger.

If it were true, there would be many more deaths by suffocation !!!
Since all the houses are full of glass wool, with very rare exceptions.
And the protections would be totally different instead of protecting against the bites of the fibers simply with gloves and masks especially for the eyes, if one is incapable of handling with gentleness and precaution.
If it was so dangerous, glass wool would be removed like asbestos !!
Figs barbaries are much worse than fiberglass, because with real darts like hooks, that do not have fiberglass!
The glass wool is not friable and keeps its section and therefore does not present at all the danger of asbestos for breathing, because not dispersing ultra-fine once in the walls.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laine_de_verre

It must be stretched glass fibers to verify it, that these glass fibers are solid and do not divide to infinity.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiante
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos
Glass wool is not subdivided spontaneously as asbestos to less than 0,01micron, very friable endless, because of its toxicity by the multiplication of spontaneous nano fibers that pierce the cells.

Fibers and wood dust cause allergies and problems for carpenters wearing masks.
even bakers develop allergies to flour.
So any handling of finely divided product, must be done with care not to breathe, even baby talc!
The dust of diesel much finer are much more dangerous and all one breathes everywhere, much more!
Insulating glass wool outside the living areas is less dangerous.

The previous post has donned other questionable claims like pearls!
Take the trouble to check carefully otherwise errors !!
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 02/02/11, 06:36

... I thought Dede too! Go for the different structure of the glass wool .... and yet our chemist, he has warned us severely against the glass wool! Besides, he fears a scandal like the one we had with asbestos ...

What makes Bidouille23, is absolutely right to say that we must beware! The teachers of different trades now seriously warn students about the protection to be taken during the pose!

And then I have not found much to say in his explanations (ah if ... spelling tears ^^ ...).

So congratulations to Bidouille23 which makes us learn things ...! (It changes us from those who improvise insulation technicians ... => joke inside)

To answer Verdes directly, whose question is excellent: the important thing is to avoid any air circulation (not controlled, as Bidouille23 described it so well). So in the corner, in addition to (or instead of) what Bidouille23 suggests, it suffices to put two continuous and hermetic silicone gaskets (per cartridge-gun) => one on the wall side, the other on the inside of the the living room ... Without forgetting the connections to the ceiling AND to the ground ... (the air must not pass, if the joint is to fulfill its function ...!)

Another point on which we must congratulate Bidouille is the famous story of glass wool which becomes conductive heat when it is "packed" (or not, moreover, this material has nothing to please!). This is absolutely true, so his job is more and more questionable.
And usually in the middle we do not talk about it, we just recommend cellulose wadding with vapor barrier or barrier IMPERATIVE ... and neat pose!
0 x
User avatar
hic
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 995
Registration: 04/04/08, 19:50
x 5

Re: wall angle insulation with glass wool




by hic » 02/02/11, 07:57

verdes wrote:Hello,
Always anxious for the smallest detail and currently in full isolation, I came to a question to which I did not find an answer, so here it is:
The greater the thickness of an insulation, the better the efficiency, and therefore the insulation "works" in thickness.
Glass wool is made up of a multitude "layers"of crossed threads, so air is trapped between these layers.
Still in this deduction, the trapped air is close to the hot face of the insulation and the hotter it is.
The question I ask myself is: As with wood, does glass wool insulate better against the grain?
If this is the case, in the wall angles, is there a risk of a thermal bridge in case of laying as shown on the sketch because the air in contact with the hot face of the insulation can be in concact with a cold part in the same layer.
Do you think it's negligible or is it better to make a cut at 45 °?
At least, with wood wool the problem does not arise ...
I hope this sketch is quite explicit.
Goods.
Image


Hi verdes

To solve your problem,

you suppress it by making an unbroken angle!
0 x
"Let food be thy medicine and thy medicine be thy food" Hippocrates
"Everything has a price has no value" Nietzche
Torture for Dummies
Forbid to express the idea that the field is acceleration (magnetic and gravitational)
And you get your patent mental torture option executioner successfully
green
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 83
Registration: 10/10/10, 18:44




by green » 02/02/11, 20:22

Thank you very much for all these explanations, I have just learned yet 8)
Good, in the mess:
I do not worry too much for the settlement as I put the high density 160, posed horizontally with optimum support.
So that the wool is not packed, I planned a space of 170 mm between the wall and the placo.
The original steam brake (craft) is not good? there is so much steam going through the placo?
My walls are hollow 20 plasterboard, sprayed on the outside, I intended to stretch a polyane between the wall and glass wool so that the moisture does not fit in the insulation, not good?
In this room there will be a Jacuzzi, so 1300 L of water, a fireplace, so heat, there will be access to a sauna by a cloakroom / shower that will serve as a sasse to isolate moisture.
So, vapor brake? vapor barrier? polyane between the placo and the glass wool?
a VMC course, about it if you have sujestions to calibrate for 50 m² knowing that there will be a mouth in the locker room (3m²) and one above the jacuzzi.
For Hic, a seamless angle? by folding the wool ?????
High density in 160, not possible without a big compaction in the corner and a kind of monstrous fold ...
To come back to the "toxicity" of glass wool, I looked everywhere and I did not find anything concerning a similarity with asbestos or other and I think that if it was dangerous the suppliers of organic insulation would make it a selling point.
Goods.
0 x
bidouille23
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1155
Registration: 21/06/09, 01:02
Location: Britain BZH powaaa
x 2




by bidouille23 » 02/02/11, 20:31

Good evening,

Obamot sorry for the spelling I have never been very strong in it lol there are literary and technical : Mrgreen: good I do not have the fiber of the dico d'or is on, that's why I do not know writer;). In short, it's all about making yourself understood in a good way if the goal is achieved it's good;).

Otherwise scandal side in my opinion there will be no, it's like everything, look who are the leaders of isover, e probably ass and shirt with members of the government have talked about big sioux (with arrows that spades), moreover there is so much pausage everywhere that it would not be a scandal but a beautiful and indeed a world catastrophe, and wait that you speak about the PER (the red and blue plastic pipes;)) is not cool at all especially when they are not manufactured at PER and that they come from China tests showed that there was a quantity of PER molecule that stood out throughout his life to give you cancer just to look at it, while the copper is re-melted and especially ANTIBACTERIEN, balance a hosto of london have had for 2 million pounds to change all its network after realizing that there was a on microbial development in their new PER network so we have been lying to each other intoxicants and all that for what ???? For the dough.

Otherwise nothing to complain about the additions, insulation is a job (uh, it's also mine finally it was it takes me too head to do the commercial with the supplier and after with customers to explain that what account it's not the price but beautiful and well the efficiency and durability of the construction and only look at the price at the bottom of the quote it's NULL and and ZERO sorry to say it like that I know that the insulation has a shot, but there is a lot of technique to reduce these shots:

1) Put the compromises where it is needed, nothing serves to have 200 m² habitable and rush insulation by what have more money and because the boiler representative said you need 60Kw to heat it without knowing what would be in the walls.


2) do the job itself (problem: time in general, tools, knowledge is not a problem proof here have pause questions and have answers (actually some are more than doubtful;) see even dangerous according to the house example how to kill a dovecote of the 18eme century in very good state of conservation and this in 6 months ???? by stopping a vapor brake instead of a vapor barrier while the coating is waterproof, I you lets imagine the result.


3) choose its materials according to its budgets so as not to overlook the regulatory quantity to implement.

Example if you lived in the countryside, you probably have straw not far from home, well it's ultra well straw and it's the cheapest, personally I thought to try to make lime paper coating a little like hemp and lime but with waste paper is free and lime is good for the health and the walls (same for paints prefer to make them based on linseed oil etc, with pigment, or else a whitewash with pigments, it's anti-bacterial and anti-fungal lime;) and not expensive at all (just fake to protect itself otherwise it burns hard believe me 3 months of healing on the wrist while 'with almost a fingertip cuts 1mois 1 / 2 healing (good 3 years for nerve ok lol but he returned nickel lol)

in short the hemp it is under another destination also for the box with horses also there are sold in boot, on the other hand for a better application prefer the hemp with the string in not just of the chenevotte (= pieces).

In short as I have said a technical manager of the CAPEB and there are the norms that give a way forward but after the way to get there is variable from one case to another, except for a new house in 2012 more worries everyone will be HQE or will not be (well that's what is said in the texts a priori so all the constructions even the heavy Renovove will pass a test of depression or will have to provide a calculation note with balance sheet thermal (it's going to be cotton for those who know the procedure to follow for these calculations, implemented on old stone house is not cotton lol) .It will see what it gives :) .


Otherwise to return to the case of insulation in general, as said Obamot (I did not have to be strong enough;)) glue SCOTHER all edges lol so actually the ground too

and actually in the middle did not talk about the problem of the glass wool and for cause how much are informed, inquires, know the materials they pausent ??? I have a lot of fun folded are cackling an ISOVER representative who began to basin me with that G3 lol, this said to choose I actually prefire KNauf ECOSE range without binder petrol in suddenly it stings and it has a little less dust (just a little less;)), keeping them in time ???? have seen in time well it's not won.
So in the end when people have asked me when a customer asked me anyway about the LDV, I said OKi but signs to keep it down and their best lambda though the panels are more expensive than the roll but they live longer.


Otherwise dedelco you work for what manufacturer's box or glass wool seller ???

I totally agree with that: "Much finer diesel dust is much more dangerous and we all breathe it everywhere, much more !!"

but the rest wikipedia sorry do not know everything (me neither moreover, you knew that in Canada in I know more which city or is located the largest asbestos mine, nobody wears a mask and everyone says that asbestos is very good, I even saw a report or a responsible actually sink in front of him saying do not see anything risk, it's like a manufacturer of LDV who to say that it is good rubs with or the cigarette maker who tells us that smoked does not give lung cancer or throat, it's like the little blue pill that makes you lose weight (do not bole it kills too), go DEDELCO stop doing the sheep and open your eyes there is still time if not continuous and cross what you want but there is what called it the principle of precaution that it would be necessary to apply;), at home I apply it does like you want .

on another forum it says: "Indeed, it is time to apply the precautionary principle!

The effect in your lungs of glass wool is a little less radical than that of asbestos but it is apparent !!

The installation must be done with airtight equipment (full filtering mask with glasses, "teddy bear" suit) and the confinement behind partitions must be total "
and it's not me who write it

and in response too there was this:

"Asbestos is a natural fiber with a crystalline structure with a diameter of less than 1,5 µm. Mineral wool fibers are manufactured fibers with a vitreous structure with a diameter of between 3 and 5 µm.
The fibers are considered to be breathable when the diameter is less than 3 µm. "

and blabbery saying in the end:
"Finally, mineral wool does not pollute the ambient air. The OQAI (Observatory for indoor air quality) showed during its Housing campaign that there were no more mineral wool fibers inside than in the outside air. "

Ok but what is the OQAI the same as for the control of the marketing of the medicines ???

A word of greeting

and good evening especially and learn about the painting what is the most dangerous in the time glycero or acrylic ???

index (in time), it is a pu the same thing as for the LDV;) but hey I make peremptory affirmations at the same time so good ....

: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

Ps, I am only a former craftsman anxious to do well and I have nothing but nothing to gain in all this, and I live in a healthy house, and my daughter and you dedelco you put what like insulation at home ???
0 x
bidouille23
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1155
Registration: 21/06/09, 01:02
Location: Britain BZH powaaa
x 2




by bidouille23 » 02/02/11, 21:01

it's me VERDES the message crossed, so I would answer but it is only my opinion of course :) :


"I do not worry too much about the settlement since I am installing high density in 160, laid horizontally with optimum support."

160 horizontal double layer crossed to also treat the thermal bridges (have covered the junction of the bottom plate with a whole plate) if the supports optima it does it although it is still plastic and it is expensive.


"So that the wool is not packed, I provided a space of 170 mm between the wall and the plasterboard."

If panels should not sag well though, otherwise the badly rolled crawl rolls on top of them in addition to packing with gravity if they are not secure.


"The original (craft) vapor brake is not good? Is there so much vapor going through the plasterboard?"

it is good but it's super hard to clog the simplest and especially the most effective is to put a film with fitting and everything and everything. And spoke of pressure and no draft.


"My walls are in concrete blocks of 20 hollow, coating projected on the outside, I intended to stretch a polyane between the wall and the glass wool so that the humidity does not enter the insulation, not good ? "

Personally for me it's good you just do not polyane movie super mega end that's all, and you put a VMC necessarily for the renewal of air in your home.

well ben I already put FERmacell and not the placo sorry, otherwise plasterboard type BA 13 hydro (placo is bare brand lafargue lol), and actually a vapor barrier and vmc (sorry for sizing this is not my job )

"For Hic, an angle without a cut? By folding the wool ?????
High density in 160, not possible without a big settlement in the angle and a kind of monstrous fold ... "you surprise me lol the glue or the double angle is probably better in your case otherwise it ' is true that it avoids the junction if have folds;


and finally

"Going back to the 'toxicity' of glass wool, I looked everywhere and I did not find anything concerning a similarity to asbestos or the like and I think that if it was dangerous the insulation suppliers organic would make it a selling point "

why have to remove the binder oil in the glass wool (pure ecose one) not the G3 he keep (of binder petrol for the holding of the materials) in the time and it is directly at isover that have me say it; ) So it is on there is still binder oil in it is the main direct irritant during the break.

question if you are a small manufacturer of insulation you will seek the war with the big ???
to apply the precautionary principle does not cost anything and can pay big me that's how I see it.

has more and good jacuzzi

fred
0 x
bidouille23
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1155
Registration: 21/06/09, 01:02
Location: Britain BZH powaaa
x 2




by bidouille23 » 02/02/11, 21:08

yes I forgot

baby bottles with "bisphenol A" (oula the spelling lol)

and if not done research on the codex alimentarius and made you afraid or cry out to lie to you to make your choice;)

fred
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 347 guests